Super Duke @ Phillip Island

[Warrend]

Hi all,
After some advice please, I recently completed a Track day at Phillip Island GP circuit, the day went well and lots of fun was had by all, had a great time dicing with fully faired bikes, found the SD1290
Could hold its own , and was amazing in every regard until the part when it "fell over"

Coming thru what is known as the Hayshed, and into Lukey heights which is a left handed over a rise, I tipped it in to the corner, rolled on the gas at the apex , and all of a sudden I was sliding on my back and a shower of sparks passing over my visor, I then hit the grass, three barrel rolls and then I finally stopped, it took a few minutes to realise what had happened, I found my bike 10 metres away from me lying on its side, so I picked it up. Hit the start button and headed back to the pits,( bike was stuck in 3rd gear due to bent shifter).

Once back in the Pits we checked the bike over, paint off the left side of swing arm, radiator shroud scratched up,
Ripped grip, bent clutch lever, that was it, so we bent everything back into shape as best as we could and went out
In the next session.

I have been trying to work out why this happened,as always with a "off" there was no warning, I took the corner as I always have many times before, although I was carrying a little more speed as I had just passed another rider.

The key difference may be is that I noticed when on track I had the bike set in super motard mode, this was a error on my part as I was late getting to the line for the start of the session and was fumbling through the modes and selected the wrong one, could this have caused the traction control to not be activated, I have asked many people and have got two different answers, some have told me that traction control does not turn off in super motard mode, and others say it does, ( which would explain the accident), can some one please clarify, Thanks.

[GJB]

The way you described the crash as no warning, suddenly down does not sound like a traction control crash, it sounds like you lost the front end. Losing the rear end comes with warning and does not happen instantly

[scamb66]

My understanding (which could be wrong) is that Supermotard mode only switches off the rear ABS and that the traction control and front ABS still functions.

[Silverbear]

Losing the front is usually because the front end was'nt loaded,not pushing the front tyre into the ground to gain maximum grip.I should know,three low sides at Eastern Creek in my early days at the track and it took quite awhile and a Toprider Bernie Hatton school that straightened me out.It dosn't help turning over a crest as this would unload your suspension more with less grip.You should talk to some of the A graders at the track and question them on how they approach the corner.My guess is they were on the gas early,as soon as they hit there turn in point so when they hit there apex(better named as clipping point for obvious reasons)which probably would of been a lot further around the bend than yours,there bikes were loaded and settled.I would suggest booking in for track School.Superbike school is better than nothing and a fun day but no where near as good as Toprider.And turn off the TC so you do the learning,not your ECU.Cheers

[Warrend]

Thanks for the replies guys, I haven't considered the front wheel washing out, but maybe it's a possibility
As when I lost the rear on a Honda Fireblade some years ago on track, it ended up in a heavy highside, and 5 days in hospital,
, where this incident was a lowside so possibly a front end loose was the culprit.

In regards to superbike school I couldn't agree more, I have completed levels 1, 2, 3 and level 4 twice and about to do another as a refresher, my regular track bike is a BMW S1000rr so with 200 horsepower available on it, and 180 odd on the KTM which my usual road bike, , traction control is a must, in my opinion.

I appreciate the advice, my next step have a chat to some racers and see what I am doing wrong

Cheers

[Motogoon]

What was the state of your tyres?

Every time I've slid out on the track or racing I can pretty much blame leaving the tyres on for just one session too many, have learnt my lesson now tho!

[ktmguy]

Super motard mode has nothing to do with the TC! All it does is turn the ABS off for the rear wheel.
TC is only ON or OFF on this bike. I ride with it off as it works better.
TC on the track on this bike won't save you in a situation like this as the SD doesn't has the lean angle compensation as well as the ADV has.
All the parts are there but for some reason it is not implemented in the software as far as I know.

Loosing the front has several possible reasons:
Tyre worn-cold, dirt-oil on the track and loss of grip as mentioned above.
Closing the throttle which transfers the weight to the front suddenly.
Opening the throttle doesn't cause this, it makes the rear step out unless the front is already at the limit and both go.

[ma1290rky]

What tyres were you running and what sort of temperature/pressure?

Saw a similar thing at Silverstone with a mate on a new R1M - front just slid out.

[DribbleDuke]

Glad your alright. It's a pisser when you crash and cannot equate how in the hell it happened. I have watched many a race from PI and I am amazed at what riders can get away with over that rise. When the bike lost and you lost it were you through the turn and headed back toward the track or were you pretty much straight off the track? Like many I think you lost the front. Do you recall the two tenths of a second before and did you feel like something was different. I'm sure that you have had the rear step out and after thought that it wasn't so bad and I'm sure that you have had the front wash out and with a bit of correction in a timely manner you thought that wasn't so bad either. When the front leaves you at speed when your pretty leaned over you could have little chance of feeling anything in time. I'm not talking about the crashes where the front washes out while still fairly upright and you get slammed to the tarmac. I'll bet that front end gets really light over that crest and just a bit more speed like you said is a recipe for disaster. You got back on that horse right away, we are all real proud of you If you do not come up with a solution blame the tyres and never use that brand again.

[DribbleDuke]

PS crashing is kind of fun.

[Scotty]

PS crashing is kind of fun.

We'll have to agree to differ on that point....

[SuperHoon]

did you hit the bump on the way up lukey?

[SDNerd]

Glad you're well!

While the suggestion of front losing traction is reasonable, based on the remarks of others, you were going over a rise - ? Video indicates there's not much - if any - camber on the apex or crest there - ? I've not been to Philip Island, and don't personally know what that particular spot looks like.

Based on your description, this seems have nothing to do with tyre condition or traction control - other than the fact that you somehow exceeded available traction limits and went down. Unfortunately, TC can't magically create more traction when you really need it. I'll spare all the rant about expectations that TC and ABS are somehow the all-occasion bacon savers: Let's just say they ain't, and you had the misfortune of being one of many recently proving it.

If essentially flat at the top (no camber), and leaned over on that left-hander (your crash description implies the bike first went down on the left side, and presumably slid to the outside of the corner - to the right and forward), as soon as the elevation changes from uphill (and/or drops), the front is going to unload - effectively reducing the amount of available traction. This will also happen to the rear - particularity if you're hard on the gas w/o allowing the bike to start to stand up on the exit. Together, with little-to-no warning and BOOM down you go and you're like WTF happened! The greater the speed, the greater the effect, meaning the transition of traction change is not only more abrupt, but one is also more likely to exceed available traction as you're at or approaching the limit to begin with. And yes - the tyres, suspension, and bars may not give you any indication whatsoever - it can happen that fast. If only we all could slither through there like Stoner would, manage sliding both front and rear at the same time ... that's one tricky looking corner - and looks like a situation where one has to "give a little to get a little". A little less speed and/or lean angle at the crest. Perhaps apex well enough before the absolute peak, so that the bike is a little more upright as you crest. As you're setting up for the next bend as you go downhill here (right-hander - ?), doing so a little earlier will not only get you over the crest with no "surprises", but likely allowing for better speed through the slight right and short straight before the Siberia "U".

FWIW A lot of pics of MotoGP, WSBK and Oz SB taken just past the crest, indicate that these guys have their bikes well on their way to being upright as they crest, which appears like they're giving up a bit to get more a little further on.

What was the state of your tyres?

Every time I've slid out on the track or racing I can pretty much blame leaving the tyres on for just one session too many, have learnt my lesson now tho!

LOL - blame leaving the tyres on? Seriously - the only thing to blame is the person who decided to overload spent tyres ... Glad to learn you no longer do that.