Body Position Tips

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orangecrush
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Body Position Tips

Postby orangecrush » Tue May 16, 2017 3:57 pm

Hey there racers and track day advanced riders/coaches. Need some good advise and examples of body position for tracking the SD. I had a pretty good BP on my 600RR, but this is a much different bike. I've taken the SD out on two track days, and I'm still struggling. I scrapped the shifter in T8 at JGP, and have scrapped boot toe sliders. So I know I'm not doing something right. I'm 4 sec. slower on the Super Duke that the RR. That is a lot.

Thank you for any help you can share for aggressive riding an upright naked bike.


tyre
T I R E
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Aphex
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Re: Body Position Tips

Postby Aphex » Tue May 16, 2017 4:15 pm

I'm no expert but I watched a lot of the SD Battle bike races and XR1200 cup to get an idea of "proper" mandlebar BP.

However I've also been smoked by guys on lesser nakeds and their butts never left the seat.

Here's a good thread on it: http://www.superduke.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20553&hilit=dragging+knee

and another: http://www.superduke.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=17123&hilit=dragging+knee
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Re: Body Position Tips

Postby Colonel_Klinck » Tue May 16, 2017 5:39 pm

Lots of old school racers hardly move on the bike. Even Jonathan Rea doesn't move that much on the bike compared to a lot of riders. He has a very lazy style but is obvioulsy fast as fook! I ride my 990/1290 in a very similar style to my sports bike on track. It is just my hands are in a different place. The one thing I have noticed with the 1290 is some kind of tank grip is essential! There is very little to lock into or at least it feels that way for me. I now have Techspec Gripster Snake Snakeskin on the tank. Anyway, so yes I still get just over half my arse off the seat, try to get my head down near my hand and drop my elbow straight down (not out). I know the 1290 has lots of grunt but on a lot of tracks a well ridden 600 is still going to give you lots of problems. They won't have the drive out of corners but they will go around those faster corners quicker, it is just the nature of the beast. If you are dragging your toes then you probably need rearsets and maybe get more of your weight to the inside of the bike. The more weight there the less lean angle you'll need. Hope that helps.
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orangecrush
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Re: Body Position Tips

Postby orangecrush » Tue May 16, 2017 8:28 pm

Thank you gentlemen.

Rearsets are a desire, but not in the budget. So...I will hang off more for now. I wish they had a stiffer set of aftermarket springs (front and rear), so until those become available, I'll try to dial up the rear a bit. May add some comp. dampening too. Those together should help keep parts off the tarmac.

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Re: Body Position Tips

Postby bauer » Thu May 18, 2017 10:25 am

BP is not the only factor that sets the lean angle. So, meanwhile you're saving for a new set of rearsets, ask yourself if you're really exploiting the full width of the track. Sometimes a half of a foot makes the difference.

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Re: Body Position Tips

Postby orangecrush » Thu May 18, 2017 11:59 am

bauer wrote:BP is not the only factor that sets the lean angle. So, meanwhile you're saving for a new set of rearsets, ask yourself if you're really exploiting the full width of the track. Sometimes a half of a foot makes the difference.


True. But, I'm pretty good on my race lines. And I have worked on altering them a bit. But, as you are aware, one thing changes another. I lost 4 sec. on my lap times when I changed from the RR to the SD. I am hoping to get that back PLUS. But, I am learning that there are limits to this bike as a track bike compared to superbikes. However, the fun factor is strong!

Really was just trying to see if there were some other thoughts on BP with an upright naked. Seems that what I'm doing is what everyone else is doing...riding it like a superbike. Well, in MY case, attempting too anyway.

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Re: Body Position Tips

Postby bauer » Thu May 18, 2017 5:15 pm

Ok.

- Widening your lines (checked)

So let's see what else we have.

- Turning the beast faster (applying harder and more decided counter-steering force would result in a lesser need of leaning angle)?
- Adding more weight to the inside of the turn (more body hanging off the bike)?


This one last point was the only pet peeve I've had with the beast since the very beginning (I also come from an RR), because I couldn't position myself back enough to avoid twisting my body, because the lack of room when hanging off. I'm not very tall (almost 6") but i like to be seated really backwars to feel secure enough to handle turns from side to side and still in (a quite reasonable) control of the bike. And my best way to solve that was to install the "pp passenger seat cover race". Now I have the room I didn't have with the passenger seat, or with the other regular passenger cover.

I can provide you as well with a vid explaining in detail how to hanging off the bike, just in case you think you may need to review and/or compare what you're doing with what Andy Ibott does. If you think you're doing it allright, then it would be useless. In fact, you actually may be doing everything right, and it may well occur that the only answer to your question is; the beast is not an RR. :mrgreen:

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Re: Body Position Tips

Postby orangecrush » Fri May 19, 2017 5:51 pm

bauer wrote:Ok.

- Widening your lines (checked)

So let's see what else we have.

- Turning the beast faster (applying harder and more decided counter-steering force would result in a lesser need of leaning angle)?
- Adding more weight to the inside of the turn (more body hanging off the bike)?


This one last point was the only pet peeve I've had with the beast since the very beginning (I also come from an RR), because I couldn't position myself back enough to avoid twisting my body, because the lack of room when hanging off. I'm not very tall (almost 6") but i like to be seated really backwars to feel secure enough to handle turns from side to side and still in (a quite reasonable) control of the bike. And my best way to solve that was to install the "pp passenger seat cover race". Now I have the room I didn't have with the passenger seat, or with the other regular passenger cover.

I can provide you as well with a vid explaining in detail how to hanging off the bike, just in case you think you may need to review and/or compare what you're doing with what Andy Ibott does. If you think you're doing it allright, then it would be useless. In fact, you actually may be doing everything right, and it may well occur that the only answer to your question is; the beast is not an RR. :mrgreen:


Yeah, I think the "It's not an RR" is a lot of the issue. I like the seat cover. I will try to find it for sale. So far, the link just lets me add it to a "wish list". I WISH they'd let me order it. LOL. I'll go see my local dealer and get him to earn his pay.
But, I do think I can hang off a bit more. But the bike is tall, and it's along way back over to the other side. The lack of the seat may make the transition a bit faster. And that is the thing about track. Every little bit helps, sometimes exponentially. May need to swap bars too. We'll see.

Thanks for the advice. It is helpful.

T I R E :)

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Re: Body Position Tips

Postby bauer » Sat May 20, 2017 7:48 pm

Glad to be of any help.

Cheers!

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Re: Body Position Tips

Postby Scuba1290r » Sun May 21, 2017 1:10 am

Add LSL Drag bars for more room to hang off.

Also the SD has a shit ton of engine braking, stop letting off so soon and brake later.

I had the same problem coming from a 1000rr to the Duke.


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Re: Body Position Tips

Postby orangecrush » Mon May 22, 2017 2:20 pm

Scuba1290r wrote:Add LSL Drag bars for more room to hang off.

Also the SD has a shit ton of engine braking, stop letting off so soon and brake later.

I had the same problem coming from a 1000rr to the Duke.


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LSL Drag Bars. That isn't a bad idea at all.

Thanks

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Re: Body Position Tips

Postby Scuba1290r » Mon May 22, 2017 4:40 pm

orangecrush wrote:
Scuba1290r wrote:Add LSL Drag bars for more room to hang off.

Also the SD has a shit ton of engine braking, stop letting off so soon and brake later.

I had the same problem coming from a 1000rr to the Duke.


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LSL Drag Bars. That isn't a bad idea at all.

Thanks


Mine are in the mail ;)


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orangecrush
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Re: Body Position Tips

Postby orangecrush » Tue May 23, 2017 7:55 pm

Scuba1290r wrote:
orangecrush wrote:
Scuba1290r wrote:Add LSL Drag bars for more room to hang off.

Also the SD has a shit ton of engine braking, stop letting off so soon and brake later.

I had the same problem coming from a 1000rr to the Duke.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


LSL Drag Bars. That isn't a bad idea at all.

Thanks


Mine are in the mail ;)


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Pics when its installed please

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Body Position Tips

Postby Scuba1290r » Fri May 26, 2017 3:21 am

Image


These bars should make a huge difference!


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Last edited by Scuba1290r on Fri May 26, 2017 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Body Position Tips

Postby Scuba1290r » Fri May 26, 2017 3:22 am

Image


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orangecrush
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Re: Body Position Tips

Postby orangecrush » Fri May 26, 2017 4:11 pm

Thanks for the Pics. Looks like it made a significant change. How does it effect turn-in? Also, are those adjustable forks? As in Pre-Load?

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Re: Body Position Tips

Postby Edorta » Fri May 26, 2017 6:33 pm

Your ex RR got higher rearset so it's normal if you hit the boots with the same BP.

Your style is nice, but not perfect. Looks like you are a litle bit inestable because you don't push enought the fuel tank with your exterior leg.

If you do this your body has got a lot of liberty and you can take your body out of the bike. For example this SD Batlle guy, look where is is knee, leg, etc (This guy has an amazing style)

Image

And if you are inestable you need to find the stability taking the handlebar harder. Doing this the bike turns worst and you get up your body... look this guy, his position, his head "in the middle" of the handlebar.

Image



Your avatar looks like the first or second rider? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


Look at me 6 years ago.... i'm not the super cool SD battle guy too :cry: :cry: :cry:

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Re: Body Position Tips

Postby Edorta » Fri May 26, 2017 6:37 pm

Scuba1290r wrote:Image


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What forks are those scuba? :shock:
Ride it like you stole it!!!

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Re: Body Position Tips

Postby orangecrush » Fri May 26, 2017 7:49 pm

Thanks Edorta. Yes sir, I will work on this tomorrow. I need to open up that "triangle" between my inside leg, and get much further off the bike.

I did raise the rear sag up a bit. We shall see what improvements I can make this weekend. It would be nice to reclaim the 4 seconds I lost.

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Re: Body Position Tips

Postby Scuba1290r » Fri May 26, 2017 9:12 pm

Edorta wrote:
Scuba1290r wrote:Image


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What forks are those scuba? :shock:


Traxxion Dynamic's AK-Gas cartridges


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Re: Body Position Tips

Postby Hotbrakes » Sun May 28, 2017 2:33 pm

Good questions Orangecrush. I too have struggled adapting to this bike. I have also had days where I struggled on my race bike. From those experiences I'd say a lot of the problem is mental, but some can be set up related.

Problem: Going slower than usual. Bike feels weird, unstable even. Body position is uncomfortable.
Solution: Let's start with the basics. Are the weather/track conditions also different? Are you running different tyres? Have you been off the bike for a while? Is a recent crash still bothering your? Has something changed with your gear (suit fits a bit tighter perhaps)? Are you physically or mentally fatigued?

My fix to this problem has almost always been overcome by adjusting my mentality. I need to be comfortable, I need to be confident, I need to apply appropriate control techniques. When these are "off", I go slow. These are the challenges I typically have when riding a different bike at speed or when I haven't ridden at speed in a while. The lap timer becomes the proverbial wall, and I bang my head into it. My fastest times have happened when I didn't care about them, and I felt like I was hardly doing anything on the bike, most notably brake application.

I found an easy solution. Take your bike to a big clean parking lot. Ride around in circles, figure 8s, do some mild stoppies (not stunts). If your leathers are restrictive as mine often are, wear something more comfortable but protective. Jeans, knee pads, and a good leather jacket. Get your tyres warm and start pushing the bike deeper. Do it without hanging off, do it just by your upper body, do it like a goon, do it like you do at the track. Do it until you feel the bike slipping and twitching. Learn what fixes those, stop turning or whatever you were doing and stop the crash. Find your comfort, build your confidence, learn how the bike feels and responds to different inputs.

You may find a geometry or suspension tweak needed to stabilize the bike. Just remember you're at much lower speeds so the G forces are not there to compress as much. You may also find a simple adjustment of the bars unlocks your speed.

I used to do this regularly back in my prime, my only limitation at the track was time and money. When I didn't do this for a while, my confidence plummeted along with my finish position.

**Disclaimer - There could be something wrong with your bike. Don't assume the problem is all mental. Make sure everything is tight and right, you're using a calibrated pressure gauge, and there's nothing weird going on with your bike like a bent frame or sticking brake caliper.

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orangecrush
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Re: Body Position Tips

Postby orangecrush » Sun May 28, 2017 5:37 pm

Great info Hotbrakes.
I had a few really good laps Saturday morning. Was getting off the bike more, and got the back me over more. Raising the rear sag helped. But just working better at getting off the bike was the biggest improvement.

Well until second session about 5 laps in. Ran out of grip in the middle of T-11. Max lean, just about to crack the gas on. (I haven't reviewed my GoPro yet, so I may have began fueling) and suddenly I was WAY off the bike. Low sided. Slid for ever.

But, now I get upgrade parts. New bars and rearsets. And a replacement Trex slider puck that did its job well.

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Re: Body Position Tips

Postby Hotbrakes » Sun May 28, 2017 7:04 pm

orangecrush wrote:Great info Hotbrakes.
I had a few really good laps Saturday morning. Was getting off the bike more, and got the back me over more. Raising the rear sag helped. But just working better at getting off the bike was the biggest improvement.

Well until second session about 5 laps in. Ran out of grip in the middle of T-11. Max lean, just about to crack the gas on. (I haven't reviewed my GoPro yet, so I may have began fueling) and suddenly I was WAY off the bike. Low sided. Slid for ever.

But, now I get upgrade parts. New bars and rearsets. And a replacement Trex slider puck that did its job well.


Do you know why you crashed? Were there any warning signs? I thought those things had traction control?!

In the beginning of my SD ownership I hauled it down to JGP with a new to me 1000RR. Rode the SD on street tyres in the cool morning sessions, felt great. But as the sessions wore on I found it hard to turn in and I began blowing apexes. Jumped on the CBR and had a blast the rest of the weekend. When I got home I learned about the fork bleeder screws and what a surprise when I loosened them and heard a hiss. The forks were building up pressure and not compressing during turn in.

Winter trackdays are the best!
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SDVTRTLRRC51SDRRVTSVSMT

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orangecrush
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Re: Body Position Tips

Postby orangecrush » Mon May 29, 2017 11:02 pm

Hotbrakes wrote:
orangecrush wrote:Great info Hotbrakes.
I had a few really good laps Saturday morning. Was getting off the bike more, and got the back me over more. Raising the rear sag helped. But just working better at getting off the bike was the biggest improvement.

Well until second session about 5 laps in. Ran out of grip in the middle of T-11. Max lean, just about to crack the gas on. (I haven't reviewed my GoPro yet, so I may have began fueling) and suddenly I was WAY off the bike. Low sided. Slid for ever.

But, now I get upgrade parts. New bars and rearsets. And a replacement Trex slider puck that did its job well.


Do you know why you crashed? Were there any warning signs? I thought those things had traction control?!

In the beginning of my SD ownership I hauled it down to JGP with a new to me 1000RR. Rode the SD on street tyres in the cool morning sessions, felt great. But as the sessions wore on I found it hard to turn in and I began blowing apexes. Jumped on the CBR and had a blast the rest of the weekend. When I got home I learned about the fork bleeder screws and what a surprise when I loosened them and heard a hiss. The forks were building up pressure and not compressing during turn in.

Winter trackdays are the best!
Image


Fork Bleeder Screws??? I have no idea? Please do tell.

I reviewed the video. Yup, I came on the gas too soon. I was at the edge of the tyre and I began fueling way too much. Lesson learned.

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Re: Body Position Tips

Postby Aphex » Tue May 30, 2017 3:11 am

Colonel_Klinck wrote:If you are dragging your toes then you probably need rearsets and maybe get more of your weight to the inside of the bike. The more weight there the less lean angle you'll need. Hope that helps.



When you do this where are you putting your weight?

This is something I've struggled with, I know you get low and to the inside but I'm talking about your actual body weight.

Are you resting all your weight on the inside peg? Wouldn't that cause you to slide more on corner exits?

If I try to weight the outside peg, I end up becoming very stiff because I literally lock my knee into the tank with my techspec sanke skin pads and it feels like a lot of the weight gets shifted to the contact point of my knee and tank.

So what I do now is just sit no the bike with one cheek off, outside foot I have my heel locked into the heel plate, I open up my hips and drop my shoulder into the turn and have the ball of my inside foot on the peg. But for some reason this feels lazy since if I have to move my body I have to pick myself up off the seat and upset the suspension.
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