2011 KTM 1198 RC8 R

For RC8 owners a general forum with technical discussion, how to's and tips related to this bike only.
User avatar
good2bking
Minimoto racer
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:05 pm
Location: Long Island

Re: 2011 KTM 1198 RC8 R

Postby good2bking » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:32 pm

Oops, Alan, I know you have one. Any further feedback? Anyone else?

User avatar
Hotbrakes
Stunt rider
 
Posts: 655
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:28 am
Location: Virginia

Re: 2011 KTM 1198 RC8 R

Postby Hotbrakes » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:49 pm

Go try one for yourself!
http://www.midohio.com/School/Courses/M ... de-Program

I did. The bike was very easy to ride. Solid, smooth, and precise. It felt very good without setting up the suspension. Took me a few sessions to learn the track but after that...

One of the control riders had the RC8RS (Race Spec) and the power difference was quite noticeable on the straight. If I didn't have this sick ex-AMA CBR1000 to race next year, I'd be whoring myself to buy one come spring. Ready to Race out of the box, couldn't say it better.
SDVTRTLRRC51SDRRVTSVSMT

User avatar
Rexr
Minimoto racer
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:38 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: 2011 KTM 1198 RC8 R

Postby Rexr » Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:19 pm

I see in today's MCN that KTM plans full factory assault on WSB in 2013 could be interesting.......and dare I say it about bloody time.... :|
Rexr.

Keep it simple.......stupid..!!

User avatar
good2bking
Minimoto racer
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:05 pm
Location: Long Island

Re: 2011 KTM 1198 RC8 R

Postby good2bking » Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:30 pm

Sacrilege, I know, but I am thinking of getting the Kawisaki zx10r instead of the rc8r. Nice comfortable bike with traction control, and ABS is an option. Its about $2k or $1k less than the rc8r depending if I want the ABS. You can shoot me/flame me if you'd like, but I would appreciate thoughtful feedback, both as to whether to get the ABS and as to which bike to get.

User avatar
Hotbrakes
Stunt rider
 
Posts: 655
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:28 am
Location: Virginia

Re: 2011 KTM 1198 RC8 R

Postby Hotbrakes » Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:03 pm

If you're looking for a purpose built track bike, RC8RS is the way to go. AFAIK the only thing it needs is safety wire, everything else is the KTM Hard Parts bolt on race kit including suspension.

The ZX10 is a very good bike from what I've seen and heard, but soon everyone will have one. No one will have an RC8R. And twins have more soul than an I4.
SDVTRTLRRC51SDRRVTSVSMT

User avatar
good2bking
Minimoto racer
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:05 pm
Location: Long Island

Re: 2011 KTM 1198 RC8 R

Postby good2bking » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:41 pm

You are absolutely right that twins have soul, but inline fours are incredibly easy to ride. I've done track days on my Duc (since sold) and struggled and on a rental I-4 and was relatively fast (FOR ME-slow as sh*t for anyone good) and that is why my interest in the zx10r which also has the electronics to help save one's bacon. Finances and the W may preclude me doing either, but...

User avatar
Crotchrockety
moderator
 
Posts: 1549
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:54 pm
Location: Ventura County, CA

Re: 2011 KTM 1198 RC8 R

Postby Crotchrockety » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:19 pm

If you have decent credit, you can get a BMW S1000RR for $200 per month with nothing down and a $6800 ballon payment in 4 yrs. I haven't ridden a ZX-10, but have ridden the S1000RR and its pretty awesome. If I were in the market for a sportbike, it would be a no brainer. I'd have a Beemer in the garage.
08 Superduke

"I'm now thinking the SD is the motocycle equivalent to 'Once you go black you don't go back.'" Agent Orange

What's that coming over the hill is it a Superduke? Is it a Superduke?

User avatar
tripoddave
Wheelie king
 
Posts: 1172
Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 6:38 pm
Location: Birmingham

Re: 2011 KTM 1198 RC8 R

Postby tripoddave » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:25 pm

good2bking wrote:Sacrilege, I know, but I am thinking of getting the Kawisaki zx10r instead of the rc8r. Nice comfortable bike with traction control, and ABS is an option. Its about $2k or $1k less than the rc8r depending if I want the ABS. You can shoot me/flame me if you'd like, but I would appreciate thoughtful feedback, both as to whether to get the ABS and as to which bike to get.


This whole traction control thing is a bit interesting.
Did you know the traction control is turned off on the ZX10R above 50% throttle?
Seems to me if you did need it you'd want it in the last 50% not the first 50% or am I missing the point?
Also the RC8R is a much faster bike in normal hands: it makes an enormous plateau of torque from 4000 to the redline and makes more power than the 10 everywhere except for the last couple of thousand rpms.
I've now ridden both on track and I'd take the RC8R over the 10R and on the road the gap is much wider IMO.
fbsr: Sticky Side Down
PIN IT. NAIL IT. BRAKE! BRAKE! SQUEEZE EVERYTHING YOU CAN!

User avatar
ktmguy
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6100
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:23 am
Location: Townsville Qld, Aussie.

Re: 2011 KTM 1198 RC8 R

Postby ktmguy » Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:21 am

I love the RC8R 2011 model. If I had the $$ I'll get one today. Unfortunately her in Australia we get absolutely ripped off by KTM and that bike is 10K more than a ZX10R :(
If you don't do anything stupid when young, you have nothing to smile about when old!


Image

fast4d
Stunt rider
 
Posts: 558
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:28 pm

Re: 2011 KTM 1198 RC8 R

Postby fast4d » Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:15 pm

2011 RC8R has excellent throttle controll. no twitching/surging, etc. excellent bike for public roads. very light on its feet.

it does bake your right leg on hot days at slower speeds. I'm still using the stock exhaust but I have an akra system.
Alan
----------------------------
2000 Kawasaki ZRX1100
2013 KTM 990 SMT
2011 KTM RC8R
2012 BMW S1000RR

briber2368
Minimoto racer
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:42 pm
Location: scotland

Re: 2011 KTM 1198 RC8 R

Postby briber2368 » Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:06 pm

JC exhaust fitted to my 2011 rc8r about 2 mth ago ,just got the bikes ecu flashed with arka map (no map on tune ecu),bike is super smooth now
Attachments
IMG_0300 [640x480].JPG
IMG_0300 [640x480].JPG (47.29 KiB) Viewed 5470 times
IMG_0298 [640x480].JPG
IMG_0298 [640x480].JPG (58.3 KiB) Viewed 5470 times

User avatar
KTM666
Trackday hero
 
Posts: 1800
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:18 pm
Location: Somerset UK

Re: 2011 KTM 1198 RC8 R

Postby KTM666 » Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:54 am

How loud is it?
I saw the light...............and it was .....................Orange

Image

briber2368
Minimoto racer
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:42 pm
Location: scotland

Re: 2011 KTM 1198 RC8 R

Postby briber2368 » Sat Oct 01, 2011 7:33 am

107 db sounds superb

Duke of Wrath
Stunt rider
 
Posts: 507
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 9:05 am
Location: BHC AZ

Re: 2011 KTM 1198 RC8 R

Postby Duke of Wrath » Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:10 am

good2bking wrote:I'm still on the fence about getting the 2011 Black RC8R (new). Anyone on here have one? How do you like it? Any issues? Does the dual spark plugs set-up solve the harsh on/off throttle issues of the earlier bikes? I took one out on a guided demo run, but the throttle needed adjustment (1/2 inch play before anything happened) and did not feel that I got a good sense of the bike, with the exception that the suspension was excellent-firm, but handled bumps and potholes way better than my SD.

Any feedback from RC8R owners greatly appreciated.


I have both an SD and an RC8.They are both great bikes.The RC8 is just so fast once you start riding it the duke feels slow.
I feel the stock gearing is to tall so I took a tooth off. Now I can get out of 2nd gear. If you get one you will love it.What the duke can't do the RC8 can.110 mph in 3rd gear at 6000.I love my duke it's so easy to go fast on the track. But if I could only have one I would have the RC8.I did 165 and still had a gear.I still don't know what the top speed is.Plus they handle so great.
My stuff 2011 RC8R black/orange forged wheels Rizoma,Rg,Sato racing,FMF apex 08 990 S/D blk/wht Full motobox with butterflies,FMF apex, rg tail tidy, carbon bits, 03 HD 100 year Heritage sil/blk Life is short.Live it with no regrets.

Duke of Wrath
Stunt rider
 
Posts: 507
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 9:05 am
Location: BHC AZ

Re: 2011 KTM 1198 RC8 R

Postby Duke of Wrath » Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:26 am

All I have to say this bike is just amazing.Break in first 600 mile nothing past 7500 rpm.
1st gear 7000 thru 6th all at 7-7500 157 mph. Just think what it will do when its broken in.

I can't wait to get the 600 mile over now I just need a pipe.I had to give my fmf up when I sold my 2010 RC8

The 2011 RC8R is perfect It handles so good I love it.
My stuff 2011 RC8R black/orange forged wheels Rizoma,Rg,Sato racing,FMF apex 08 990 S/D blk/wht Full motobox with butterflies,FMF apex, rg tail tidy, carbon bits, 03 HD 100 year Heritage sil/blk Life is short.Live it with no regrets.

User avatar
SDNerd
Master of the twisties
 
Posts: 3292
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:36 am
Location: Kalifornistan

Re: 2011 KTM 1198 RC8 R

Postby SDNerd » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:27 pm

Duke of Wrath wrote:All I have to say this bike is just amazing.Break in first 600 mile nothing past 7500 rpm.
1st gear 7000 thru 6th all at 7-7500 157 mph. Just think what it will do when its broken in.

I can't wait to get the 600 mile over now I just need a pipe.I had to give my fmf up when I sold my 2010 RC8

The 2011 RC8R is perfect It handles so good I love it.

I'm impressed with your restraint. I know what it will do when broken in. :D Kinda jealous - they make speed so easily.

If there's one thing I truly loathe about a new bike - is having to break it in (by the book)!

Duke of Wrath
Stunt rider
 
Posts: 507
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 9:05 am
Location: BHC AZ

Re: 2011 KTM 1198 RC8 R

Postby Duke of Wrath » Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:53 pm

Me too Jim I just want to do it right. I do have to sayI might have cheated a little I did 200 miles yesterday some with 20mph winds.The bike is stable it was that I was being blown all over the place but the bike was perfect.So good. I want a pipe but FMF is on back order for 5 weeks.Might have to go akra.I don't need one it's just so quiet I could pass La Guna Seca now

When it it 420 miles it felt differant very peppy now it feels like it wants to wheelie in every gear.I don't care how good the new I-4's are I was very close to getting a BMW like Mike.It so beautiful. But I have a new KTM dealer with a good mech in my Town!! thats huge no more 6 hour drives.I love the V Twin And my friend that has a very fast cbr1000rr yesterday, I saw I got him worried my old 10 was no match.

This one we did some roll ons and he can't do what he did before and it's not broke in all the way.
Now the BMW is an amimal But I am not a top end guy I love the power down low and I did not want all the gadgets
mostley because i can even posts pics on this forum. so I know I would be lost with all the gizmos on these new bikes.
My 2011 can do some neat stuff with the computer like change the map to race gas and track so it runs faster than road map
I thought was cool Now I just have figure it out and find some unleaded race gas local.

All I can say there are not too many 2011 left except for maybe track only.As cool as that bike is I can't have 20g's sitting in the garage and only use it once a month if that. It would kill me. I get to ride mine every day weather permits.
If you can find one get one it's like a duke just much faster the riding position is more of a bend but even with my bad back I can adjust it to make it as comfy as possiple I can sit up if i want.
You just get a big wind blast when you do. At least it's good for slowing you down.

I am very happy with this bike.I am glad I got it. I love the color and the way it looks is so differant.It stands out every where I go people want to know what it is.It comes with Orange wheels.I have Black forged wheels with the orange stripe for track day I can't wait to see what that looks like. 8 spoke vrs 5 spoke.

Ktm nailed it with this bike they run perfect no snatchy issue. fast as hell tranny is smooth handles like a dream. I just am not sure about the dunlaps. but they will be my street tyre.I run Pirelli for track which I love.Not saying anythings wrong with the dunnys just don't have that same feel when I am leaned over. I am sure it's just me.I like soft compounds the dunnys feel hard to me.They alway have.I had some on my aprilia I truly hated them they would slip all the time.
My stuff 2011 RC8R black/orange forged wheels Rizoma,Rg,Sato racing,FMF apex 08 990 S/D blk/wht Full motobox with butterflies,FMF apex, rg tail tidy, carbon bits, 03 HD 100 year Heritage sil/blk Life is short.Live it with no regrets.

Porkchop Express
Two wheeled terror
 
Posts: 230
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:05 am

Re: 2011 KTM 1198 RC8 R

Postby Porkchop Express » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:51 am

Duke of Wrath wrote:Me too Jim I just want to do it right. I do have to sayI might have cheated a little I did 200 miles yesterday some with 20mph winds.The bike is stable it was that I was being blown all over the place but the bike was perfect.So good. I want a pipe but FMF is on back order for 5 weeks.Might have to go akra.I don't need one it's just so quiet I could pass La Guna Seca now

When it it 420 miles it felt differant very peppy now it feels like it wants to wheelie in every gear.I don't care how good the new I-4's are I was very close to getting a BMW like Mike.It so beautiful. But I have a new KTM dealer with a good mech in my Town!! thats huge no more 6 hour drives.I love the V Twin And my friend that has a very fast cbr1000rr yesterday, I saw I got him worried my old 10 was no match.

This one we did some roll ons and he can't do what he did before and it's not broke in all the way.
Now the BMW is an amimal But I am not a top end guy I love the power down low and I did not want all the gadgets
mostley because i can even posts pics on this forum. so I know I would be lost with all the gizmos on these new bikes.
My 2011 can do some neat stuff with the computer like change the map to race gas and track so it runs faster than road map
I thought was cool Now I just have figure it out and find some unleaded race gas local.

All I can say there are not too many 2011 left except for maybe track only.As cool as that bike is I can't have 20g's sitting in the garage and only use it once a month if that. It would kill me. I get to ride mine every day weather permits.
If you can find one get one it's like a duke just much faster the riding position is more of a bend but even with my bad back I can adjust it to make it as comfy as possiple I can sit up if i want.
You just get a big wind blast when you do. At least it's good for slowing you down.

I am very happy with this bike.I am glad I got it. I love the color and the way it looks is so differant.It stands out every where I go people want to know what it is.It comes with Orange wheels.I have Black forged wheels with the orange stripe for track day I can't wait to see what that looks like. 8 spoke vrs 5 spoke.

Ktm nailed it with this bike they run perfect no snatchy issue. fast as hell tranny is smooth handles like a dream. I just am not sure about the dunlaps. but they will be my street tyre.I run Pirelli for track which I love.Not saying anythings wrong with the dunnys just don't have that same feel when I am leaned over. I am sure it's just me.I like soft compounds the dunnys feel hard to me.They alway have.I had some on my aprilia I truly hated them they would slip all the time.


Congrats on what sounds like a real dream machine. I'm also encouraged to hear that you have a "new" KTM dealer in your town. Lately, I feel like all we hear about is dealers closing up shop so it's nice to hear some good news on the dealer front for once.

Sean

User avatar
SDNerd
Master of the twisties
 
Posts: 3292
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:36 am
Location: Kalifornistan

Re: 2011 KTM 1198 RC8 R

Postby SDNerd » Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:55 am

Duke of Wrath wrote:Me too Jim I just want to do it right...

... My 2011 can do some neat stuff with the computer like change the map to race gas and track so it runs faster than road map
I thought was cool Now I just have figure it out and find some unleaded race gas local ...


Glad to read you're super stoked with the bike. There will no doubt be race gas for sale at the CVR trackday, but the RC8R makes so much juice everywhere, its really not necessary. Particularly on a track like CVR, where outright horsepower is NOT king. On the street, I can't imagine needing race gas. My license would be in jeopardy enough just street riding the thing as-is.

If you you want the FMF cans - IMO you're better off waiting for what you want (rather than buying Akras). Again, you know damn well they aren't for the need of extra HP (lol); and for racetrack use - the bike won't really be hindered by not having them. If ever you see my current track bike, you'll laugh your ass off at how stock it is - even the exhaust and the crazy-heavy cat: Still as they were from the factory. For me, its a testament to how good the modern sportbike is straight out of the box.

Its kinda fun to shame a lot of disciples of the cost-no-object-will-definitely-make-me-go-faster-becasue-I-spent-so-much faith in the fast groups, with an off-the-showroom-floor appearing bike with a 20 to 60 HP deficit to most in the field.

And it never ceases to be humbling to be left as if standing still by AMA pros on 600s whose bikes a little more power, where its no question that it's their skill that rules. Nothing like the front row seat, 10' (or less) behind those guys on corners. I digress ...

Great that you're enjoying it!

Duke of Wrath
Stunt rider
 
Posts: 507
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 9:05 am
Location: BHC AZ

Re: 2011 KTM 1198 RC8 R

Postby Duke of Wrath » Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:36 am

Your right Jim The bike runs so good stock.I only want the FMF can in stainless and will wait .I can get a ti system now.It's 400 bucks more.I don't need the weight savings.Plus I think it's a waiste of money for me .Since you really don't see the pipe.I told the guys at FMF to call me when they start making them and I will get one.The only real reason I want the change is I saw what it did for my 10.The stock set up is so heavy and I can't use leaded gas.I know using race gas is not something that will make me go faster.

I like using the better fuel because i think it burns cleaner.The gas we have now is so dirty.and the race gas I can get comes right out of the ground I can drive up and fill er up.

Because it's from a pump it's cheaper than buying the 5 gal cans of VP.I just wanted to see if it made a differance.I'm not that fast that I need anything to make this bike faster.It's fine the way it is stock.

If I take off that huge hunk of metal and put that cool little pipe it sounds so nice.Plus when I change out the wheels to the forged I should see some weight loss.Thats all I am going to do is a pipe.I am not doing the club kit or the superbike kit.

Have you seen the prices on the hop up kit? you can spend 10 g's just for the kit then you have to find some one that can put it all together.Not for me Unless I find a way to lose 30 years find the way back machine lol.

All in all to be honest I think this is the first bike I have bought brand new that, motor wise it needs nothing.I did the rear sets for my back and the sliders for protection.

The tail tidy is a must it's like they made this beautful bike from the front and worked backwards when they got to the rear of the bike someone took a break and a new guy finished up because the rear is just plain ugly they may work but that has to be the first thing that goes.

So on track day I will have close to a 1000 miles and have the first service done. I think it will have the stock pipe.Which is ok it's just so quite.
It will run great.I am not sure about gearing.I think I will leave it stock and see how it works.I can't find any info on th 2011.The 2010 the fix was dropping a tooth on the counter shaft.It works great.The new bike does not feel like it needs it.

When you ride it I would like your thoughts cause I have the sprocket. I can't wait to see how it feels on a nice track the roads here are bumpy some times we find some smooth stuff and it feels nice.

I have not done a thing to the susp. I will bring my book and maybe Ed can help me dial it in.
I just want to get out ther so I can go fast and not worry about cops.This bike is like a neon sign "follow me and you will be rewarded with a big violation"

I have had some metro cops do u turns to follow me just waiting for me to flog it.My 10 had radar this does not I feel naked.

talk soon
vic
My stuff 2011 RC8R black/orange forged wheels Rizoma,Rg,Sato racing,FMF apex 08 990 S/D blk/wht Full motobox with butterflies,FMF apex, rg tail tidy, carbon bits, 03 HD 100 year Heritage sil/blk Life is short.Live it with no regrets.

SugarMonkey
Minimoto racer
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:50 pm
Location: Derby UK

Re: 2011 KTM 1198 RC8 R

Postby SugarMonkey » Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:29 am

Took the 2012 R model out for a spin when mine was in for service and I can say fook me what a bike!! Gives you so much confidence in corners and exeleration is fernominal the hump in the seat seems to be at the right point so that you dont slide back when exelerating hard and let me tell you... even aston martins dont even try to beatI you. The lights on the front just say "COME ON THEN LETS HAVE YOU!!"

When I was cornering you could even feather the front brakes with confidence, awsome machine!! When I become a 2 bike gargage this will be one of them. So many great points far to many to metion......
When I die bury me upside down so the world can kiss my ass

Duke of Wrath
Stunt rider
 
Posts: 507
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 9:05 am
Location: BHC AZ

Re: 2011 KTM 1198 RC8 R

Postby Duke of Wrath » Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:25 am

Your right it is amazing.I had the 600 mile service done and had the coolent changed out today.
It's almost ready for the track all I have to do is change out the wheels.I think I will do that next wed then get it track ready.

I can't wait to see how the corso rossa's handle on the track.I hope I can dial in the susp with the help of Ed .I know this bike can do great things
I want to ride it so bad. I want to see what it will do after 7500 rpm I know it will really wake up.
My stuff 2011 RC8R black/orange forged wheels Rizoma,Rg,Sato racing,FMF apex 08 990 S/D blk/wht Full motobox with butterflies,FMF apex, rg tail tidy, carbon bits, 03 HD 100 year Heritage sil/blk Life is short.Live it with no regrets.

User avatar
Joker
Minimoto racer
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:45 pm
Location: Finland

Re: 2011 KTM 1198 RC8 R

Postby Joker » Thu May 10, 2012 7:02 am

Hello RC8 R owners! I have a -06 SD and I'm looking for a new bike. The RC8 R looks very tempting, but the ergonomics puzzle me. The test bike I rode had the clip-ons in the "normal" setting and the rear seat in its upper position. That stance was too racy for me for every day use. I use the SD for commuting also so I want a bike with good ergos.
So the question is, when you set the RC8 clip-ons and seat + footpegs to their most ergonomic position, how comfy is it in comparison to the SD?
Everything else about the bike (throttle included) is just so fantastic... :D

User avatar
SDNerd
Master of the twisties
 
Posts: 3292
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:36 am
Location: Kalifornistan

Re:

Postby SDNerd » Thu May 10, 2012 5:02 pm

gigeorge wrote:Yeah thats pretty damned sexy, 180 horsies... Woot?!

Oh, it goes ... :shock:

User avatar
Vortex155
Two wheeled terror
 
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:17 pm
Location: Antwerp

Re: 2011 KTM 1198 RC8 R

Postby Vortex155 » Thu May 10, 2012 7:43 pm

Joker wrote:Hello RC8 R owners! I have a -06 SD and I'm looking for a new bike. The RC8 R looks very tempting, but the ergonomics puzzle me. The test bike I rode had the clip-ons in the "normal" setting and the rear seat in its upper position. That stance was too racy for me for every day use. I use the SD for commuting also so I want a bike with good ergos.
So the question is, when you set the RC8 clip-ons and seat + footpegs to their most ergonomic position, how comfy is it in comparison to the SD?
Everything else about the bike (throttle included) is just so fantastic... :D


I have my footpegs in middle position,clipons in low and seat in normal low position, I'm 1m80 and bike feels very fine to me.
seat in high position brings the bike off balance imo, to much weight on front.
Vortex155 on twitter

PreviousNext

Return to RC8(R)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests