How to remap the 1290

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DMacL
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Re: How to remap the 1290

Postby DMacL » Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:39 am

That does give correlation for brown and green/red being 0V and 12V supply though.

I found this, which I've yet to test for, but which suggests why there's three wires.

http://www.esd-electronics-usa.com/CAN- ... Guide.html

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Re: How to remap the 1290

Postby jmann » Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:40 am

First things first. Can anybody point to a downloadable manual that includes the complete wiring diagram. That one from the Adventure would be
useful as well. Has the Adventure got the same ECU?

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Re: How to remap the 1290

Postby DMacL » Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:16 pm

There are similarities to the 1190 Adv, but don't know if they use same ECU or not. I posted details from the 1290's ECU sticker further up the thread.

No manuals available for 1290 yet, dealer promises to let me know when they receive them.

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Re: How to remap the 1290

Postby kevxtx » Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:50 pm

jmann wrote:First things first. Can anybody point to a downloadable manual that includes the complete wiring diagram. That one from the Adventure would be
useful as well. Has the Adventure got the same ECU?


1190 for you. https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=4BC2D89C ... LIuA7wCgeA

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Re: How to remap the 1290

Postby DMacL » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:28 am

Thanks for the link Kevxtx

The 1190 ADV diagnostic wiring is different to what I've seen on the 1290's connector.

However, I found a link for the 2009 1190 RC8R manual in that skydrive. It's connector wiring is identical to the 1290 SDR.

I can't see any indication anywhere that the RC8R needs a different cable for TuneECU or that it won't work, indeed there are maps for the RC8R listed on TuneECU website.

To that end I'm going to assume that my pin 6, light blue, correlates with the RC8R's pin 6, light blue, K-line. And try connecting laptop up to the 1290 with the "standard" TuneECU 3-wire connection cable I have here. Which will be a bit embarassing if it all just works and pulls a map off first time.....

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Re: How to remap the 1290

Postby DMacL » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:01 am

jmann wrote:First things first. Can anybody point to a downloadable manual that includes the complete wiring diagram. That one from the Adventure would be
useful as well. Has the Adventure got the same ECU?


Misread your post. No, I've been unable to find a manual showing wiring diagrams yet, hence all this dicking about. Dealer promises he'll send me them as soon as he gets his copy of the manual.

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Re: How to remap the 1290

Postby DMacL » Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:49 pm

Ran out of steam with this, did some dicking about with cables trying to persuade various software to at least acknowledge there was something in the bike to talk to, but with no success.

Hopefully someone with more ability/patience than me will work something out and publish it.

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Re: How to remap the 1290

Postby jmann » Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:07 pm

DMacL wrote:Ran out of steam with this, did some dicking about with cables trying to persuade various software to at least acknowledge there was something in the bike to talk to, but with no success.

Hopefully someone with more ability/patience than me will work something out and publish it.


I assume you used TuneECU and just a 990 style cable in your various attempts? I guess if you didn't have a standard setup that was known
to work moving on from there is a bit difficult.

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Re: How to remap the 1290

Postby ktmguy » Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:41 am

DMacL wrote:Ran out of steam with this, did some dicking about with cables trying to persuade various software to at least acknowledge there was something in the bike to talk to, but with no success.

Hopefully someone with more ability/patience than me will work something out and publish it.


Tip. Since you own one and probably need to go to the dealers at some stage, have a look at the KTM diagnostic box setup. In particular the wires used on the diag plug.
I can't do it since I don't own one yet, but all info is welcome. I'm sure we can work it out.
Did you try the setup for the RC8? This is the closest to it not 990.
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Re: How to remap the 1290

Postby DMacL » Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:51 am

Yup RC8 wiring diagrams is what I've based it from. The dealer's tablet connects with a wireless (or maybe bluetooth) dongle which connects to the bike with no wiring harness, so not much info there, unless they let me open it up!
I'll chat up the mechanics next time I'm down there see what they can tell me.

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Re: How to remap the 1290

Postby jmann » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:46 pm

Ok I've started to dick around with this as well.

DMacL I notice that you and Kevxtx seem to think the wiring for the diagnostic plug on the Adventurer 1190 and the SD 1290 are different. I think that you have just reversed the connection gender so that what you listed as pin 1 (white and blue) is in fact pin 3 and vice versa. The connector is an AP/6 but you are looking at it as though it's a BH/6. The point is that what you describe IS the same as the Adventurer wiring diagram other the extra line on pin4 (light blue).

The Adventurer uses the same ECU as the SD1290 - no surprises there. However I am slightly confused by the fact that it has both 61341031000 TIMING CHARGER EFI, and 60311033200 ENGINE CONTROL UNIT 2.1 listed. Is the latter just a replacement for the former?

If you look at page 393 (repair manual rc8) for the RC8 diagnostic connector it tells what the actual pins do: 1(Orange): System Voltage, 2(Black&Blue):CAN high, 3(Blue&White):CAN low, 4(Light Blue):K bus for KTM diagnostic tool, 5: unassigned, 6 (Brown): Ground. This looks very similar to both RC8 and Adv and 1290. In fact, I think the only differences are the cable colour for the System Voltage.

Now my next step is to look an an original SD TuneECU cable and see what was actually being used if it were connected to an RC8 as others say it was (and worked).

Will report ASAP.

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Re: How to remap the 1290

Postby DMacL » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:16 pm

The original TuneECU cable I have, from Lonelec, has +12V, 0V and K-line connected, only the three wires present.

I've also noticed in the past couple of days that there seems to be a second ECU-looking (flat, black, two connectors with lots of wires) box under the rear of the rider's seat. There's also a spare multiconnector and a bunch of individual wires tucked in next to it which aren't connected to anything.

I wonder if KTM have re-used the loom from the ADV or RC8R? Or if they originally intended to have more electronic gubbins in there.

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Re: How to remap the 1290

Postby jmann » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:59 am

DMacL wrote:The original TuneECU cable I have, from Lonelec, has +12V, 0V and K-line connected, only the three wires present.

I've also noticed in the past couple of days that there seems to be a second ECU-looking (flat, black, two connectors with lots of wires) box under the rear of the rider's seat. There's also a spare multiconnector and a bunch of individual wires tucked in next to it which aren't connected to anything.

I wonder if KTM have re-used the loom from the ADV or RC8R? Or if they originally intended to have more electronic gubbins in there.


Umm I've been struggling a bit with all of this because I don't actually have a 1290 Repair manual yet and the Adv 1190 manual I have (from the skydrive) isn't an original PDF so the search function doesn't work. This makes it incredibly difficult to find things except by reading each page.

Here's some background photo's for those without a 1290.

Under the riders seat:
Image
What looks like an ECU mounted in on the left with two connectors. Through the hole the Diagnostic connector.

The Diagnostic Connector wiring:
Image

The label on what looks like the ECU:
Image

After removing the apparent ECU and the cover plate:
Image

Note the empty connector. At a guess I think it's for the Alarm. The following photograph is off the Powerparts web site:

Image

Now on DMacL's suggestion I went looking further and found this under another cover:

Image

Here's the label on that box:
Image
From the part number and the Adv 1190 parts and the 1290 parts list it appears to be:
6 60311033200 ENGINE CONTROL UNIT 2.1
If this is so then the other thing is:
17 61341031000 TIMING CHARGER EFI

Indeed this would tend to support that notion:
http://www.eldor.it/content/en/electronic-control-unit

Ok so now we have the bits identified there are a couple of questions arising from the Adv 1190 wiring diagrams which I assume will be similar to the SD 1290 when we get one.
The first question is what is this item A10 Central electrical system control unit referred to in every diagram? It apparently has a AO/26 connector and a CO/34 connector. On one page (p253) it's referred to as the Vehicle Control Unit.
The second question is what is A11 EFI Control Unit which has a a GF/48 connector and a GG/36 connector. Is that the Keihin unit? Are Timing Charger EFI and EFI Control Unit the same? The pin count is correct and the cable colours for pins 1&16 are correct on the 48 pin connector and pins 1 and 11 are correct on the 36 pin connector. Thus A11 seems to be the Timing Charger EFI.

But what and where is A10? I'll report ASAP.

EDIT:
I think I have answered my own question. A10 is in fact the Eldor unit. It has GF/48 and a GC/36 and the colours seem to match with the Adv 1190 wiring diagram. So it looks as though Eldor unit contrtols all of the CanBus functions and the Keihin does the EFI just like it used to.

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Re: How to remap the 1290

Postby ktmguy » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:20 am

From what I know it also is the traction control/ fly by wire throttle hence the name engine control unit. it does a few functions depending on parameters and info received from sensors.
Like sensor indicates wheel is slipping so close throttle a bit...
In my opinion changing things here is not going to be that easy as these components work together closely. Fiddling with the keihin bit will only change the fuel and ignition, that will not say it will work better as the other box controls the butterfly. By doing the same as we done with the old model you can merely optimise the fuel for other exhausts or so, changing the way the traction control or abs works will be a totally different ball game.
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Re: How to remap the 1290

Postby jmann » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:47 am

ktmguy wrote:From what I know it also is the traction control/ fly by wire throttle hence the name engine control unit. it does a few functions depending on parameters and info received from sensors.
Like sensor indicates wheel is slipping so close throttle a bit...
In my opinion changing things here is not going to be that easy as these components work together closely. Fiddling with the keihin bit will only change the fuel and ignition, that will not say it will work better as the other box controls the butterfly. By doing the same as we done with the old model you can merely optimise the fuel for other exhausts or so, changing the way the traction control or abs works will be a totally different ball game.


Agreed but putting in a new map to cope with a new Can will be a vast improvement.


It would be nice to be able to map the messages as well. If that could be done then it might be possible to see what is going on with the throttle control. How does it do step-wise opening rather than linear? Just because it's hard is no reason not to try :wink:

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Re: How to remap the 1290

Postby ktmguy » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:08 am

jmann wrote:Agreed but putting in a new map to cope with a new Can will be a vast improvement.

It would be nice to be able to map the messages as well. If that could be done then it might be possible to see what is going on with the throttle control. How does it do step-wise opening rather than linear? Just because it's hard is no reason not to try :wink:


Totally agree! One of the reasons I like to gather knowledge, is that in strictly my opinion, to avoid the danger is that "they" implement speed restrictions by means of fly by wire throttle.
I know sounds a bit tin foil hat but the way these idiots target speeding like a worse crime than axe murdering 20 people, it's only a step away. (do I sound like dribble now :lol: )

New vehicles are in a way always restriced due to enviromental laws, getting rid of that makes it run better in general. The old SD is a good example of that.
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Re: How to remap the 1290

Postby ktmguy » Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:28 am

To figure this thing out can someone owning one shed light on a few questions?
Is the throttle butterfly controlled by the keihin unit or the engine control unit? You might have to follow the wiring from the butterfly to whatever box it goes to.
Am I correct in my assumption that there is no 2nd butterfly as it doesn't need one since the first one is controlled by an ecu anyway!?

Just try to figure out what does what. The way it all works is that separate components are controlled by separate ecu units and relay information to each other via the canbus system.
So a setting, let's say rain, tells the box controlling the throttle to only open it 50% ans very proggessively. At the same time the bosch ABS is set to rain settings and information is passed on to the dash.

Just trying to figure out what we can expect if we can access the keihin unit as that will be the most likely.
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Re: How to remap the 1290

Postby jmann » Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:43 pm

ktmguy wrote:To figure this thing out can someone owning one shed light on a few questions?
Is the throttle butterfly controlled by the keihin unit or the engine control unit? You might have to follow the wiring from the butterfly to whatever box it goes to.
Am I correct in my assumption that there is no 2nd butterfly as it doesn't need one since the first one is controlled by an ecu anyway!?

Just try to figure out what does what. The way it all works is that separate components are controlled by separate ecu units and relay information to each other via the canbus system.
So a setting, let's say rain, tells the box controlling the throttle to only open it 50% ans very proggessively. At the same time the bosch ABS is set to rain settings and information is passed on to the dash.

Just trying to figure out what we can expect if we can access the keihin unit as that will be the most likely.


Yes I'm on to it but there's a couple of problems the least of which is "Look you've just brought that thing, why are you pulling it apart?" and the second of which is time. My strategy is largely from the Adv 1190 wiring diagrams (SD 1290's not available yet) and the problem there is that they show pretty well all components connected to a single line (the CanBus backbone presumably). It is thus difficult to tell what does what. I'll have another look (diagram and wires) to see if the butterfly's have a direct electrical connection but I suspect not. I can tell you that the throttle has regular cables to the sensor which is located up under the RHS cowling near where the BGP used to be. Hopefully rain won't make the throttle suddenly switch to full on :lol:

I think you are almost correct when you say that
So a setting, let's say rain, tells the box controlling the throttle to only open it 50% ans very proggessively. At the same time the bosch ABS is set to rain settings and information is passed on to the dash.


My view is that a Rain setting sends a single message to a controller which sets a flag. The controller then uses its normal algorithms for sending messages to the throttle body BUT based on a piece of code something like "Opening==HandAngle * ModeOffset" where ModeOffset is equal to Sport, Road or Rain Etc. Thus any intervention needs to either change that code OR send a message that says something like set the mode to sport BUT set the flag to 100% thus creating race mode. Now how would this be done - via a wireless Canbus device - perhaps an Android phone.

To me the the focus needs to be on plugging in a CanBus device so that the messages can be decoded or mapped but I have no experience with CanBus. Suggestions for a robust but cheap device and useful software (preferably OSX) would be gratefully received.

I'll still pursue the wiring angle though just in case there are dedicated wires.

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Re: How to remap the 1290

Postby ktmguy » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:53 am

The idea of the canbus system is that it can talk to several different items so they don't need to run miles of wires for communicating stuff as it goes over the bus.
Items requiring power like the motor controlling the throttle will still have power wires run to it. The question is to which items do they run power and canbus so it needs an internal processor to interpret the signals or do they just run power and controle wiring. I haven't seen one but I think the canbus will only run in between the main items e.g. Keihin ecu, engine controller box, ABS and the dash.
For KTM it makes sense too as they are not locked in with a manufacturer and can change parts as long as the communication protocol is canbus. Like lets say another ABS system.
It doesn't make any sense to run canbus to an indicator for example as it still needs power for the bulb.
So I guess the throttle butterfly will be similar and have a harnass with a few wires (probably 3 or 4) to either the keihin ECU or he engine controller.

Personally I don't see any point other than curiosity at this stage to modify anything else than the maps, so we can adjust for exhaust and filters. So would focus on the Keihin ECU.
Probably Alain and Tom are looking in to it and hoppefully have Tuneecu setup for it soon.
Later maybe we find a reason to personalise other settings. :wink:
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Re: How to remap the 1290

Postby jmann » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:17 am

You're entirely right I'll just wait for Alain and Tom rather than stuffing around with this.

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Re: How to remap the 1290

Postby Pikey » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:43 am

I think you might find the wiring is more or less the same as the 1190. I purchased the dongle for mine and it came in no time, got a few powerparts, when I asked the dealer why a few parts came so quickly, yet I am waiting for the others, he said they were already I stock due to the fact they fit the 1190 as well (dongle was one of them) it plugs straight into that plug under the seat

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Re: How to remap the 1290

Postby ebags » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:50 am

You'll have to excuse my ignorance lads, but what are you trying to achieve here??

Won't Dynojet or Bazzaz release a fuel controller soon enough. .. off to the dyno and presto?!

I've seen a lot of later model jap bike owners (mostly US with all their restrictions pollution crap) send their ECU's off for a re flash woth various requirements but never alnything like this.

I've also seen plenty of jap bikes putting down 30-40 hp more than stock, with head work, cams etc that still tune fine with nothing more than a fuel controller (still no need for ignition control unless you want forced induction).

But then ive never owned a KTM either. Just trying to suck up as much info as possible. I was well over 10k in mods on my R1 and there was little I didnt know about that bike. I want to achieve the same if not more with this one.
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Re: How to remap the 1290

Postby jmann » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:57 am

ebags wrote:You'll have to excuse my ignorance lads, but what are you trying to achieve here??

Won't Dynojet or Bazzaz release a fuel controller soon enough. .. off to the dyno and presto?!

I've seen a lot of later model jap bike owners (mostly US with all their restrictions pollution crap) send their ECU's off for a re flash woth various requirements but never alnything like this.

I've also seen plenty of jap bikes putting down 30-40 hp more than stock, with head work, cams etc that still tune fine with nothing more than a fuel controller (still no need for ignition control unless you want forced induction).

But then ive never owned a KTM either. Just trying to suck up as much info as possible. I was well over 10k in mods on my R1 and there was little I didnt know about that bike. I want to achieve the same if not more with this one.


Well the short answer is that both the Power Commander (PC) and Bazzaz achieve their objective by connecting between the ECU and the fuel Injectors. Essentially, they take the interval message sent by the ECU to the injector and say "Well because I'm running an open pipe like an Akro system or an AR System I better add a bit more fuel say in the mid-range." They do this by intercepting the signal and modifying it so the injector might stay open longer Etc. Something like TuneECU or indeed a KTM modified map just changes the ECU map to a new one so that no trickery has to occur. In itself this is not a big deal because both PC's and Bazzaz have been proven to work although they are a bit indirect (why go to the backdoor so you can unlock the front door, then step outside and come back in from the front door?).

The kicker is that TuneECU was entirely free (apart from the cable approx. $25) whereas both PC and Bazzaz cost quite a few dollars? Also it is very simple to switch a pipe Eg for a road trip, do a remap, then switch back when you want to go to the track.

Essentially, it's not critical although its convenient and cheap. Further, something like TuneECU allows you to download the original map before you start and go from there whereas self-learning systems tend to be a bit of a black box. A further advantage is that the technology has now evolved to the point where it should be possible to do a remap from say an Android phone.

Over to you Guy for corrections...

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Re: How to remap the 1290

Postby ktmguy » Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:12 am

jmann wrote:Over to you Guy for corrections...


Thanks Jmann! :lol:
First KTM advises the bluetooth tablet connection is for diagnostic ONLY! All software upgrades should be done with cable. (for explanation read the article where KTM boast about the new ABS MSC retrofit for the AV1190. BTW new bikes have it and all the good people who forked out last year for one, need to pay an extra 400euro, probably 5-600 bucks to get it, thanks KTM for taking care of your loyal customers. Rant over)

For the rest Jmann is correct. Why would you pay for a extra like a PC or Bazzaz when you can do the mod for free plus have the advantage to change other settings and use it as a diagnostic tool.
Only way a PCV makes sence is if you want it dynotuned and your tuner doesn't want to work with Tuneecu or it takes more time than the value of the PCV.
Keep in mind you need to fit these boxes too which on some bikes is a nightmare.
As mentioned tuneecu changes the map in the ECU so no interfering with signals, no extra connectors (extra BGC anyone) and the like.
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Re: How to remap the 1290

Postby ebags » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:16 am

Thanks for the clarification.

Personally even if this became possible for this bike and I tried it, I'd still prefer to check on the dyno and have the "hardwired" map tweaked by a fuel controller. Plus the added benefit of the fuel controller is the option to have a base map and then have auto-tune make fine adjustments on the fly for air temps, ram air, etc.

So when I get my full Akra exhaust how will the dealer re-map my bike? Have a look at this video specifically the screen at 4:45. It shows adjustments for idle and full load on the dealers tablet. :?: Is this all they will adjust or is there a full map that's flashed to the ECU perhaps?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQYx1snHMs4
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