Rear hub numbers affected.

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Is your 1290 affected by the rear hub problem

Yes
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No
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Scotty
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Re: Rear hub numbers affected.

Postby Scotty » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:52 am

Morning all, work's a little quiet so I checked "new posts" on the forum and found this little odyssey and read through all 15 pages...
I have to say that I'm staggered at KTM's attitude to this issue, stating that "1mm of play is acceptable" - what a load of crap! I don't know about elsewhere in the world but in the UK any vehicle (bike or car) requires an annual vehicle test once it reaches three years of age, and a bike with 1mm of play (or less) in the rear wheel would be failed by any tester as "having excessive play in the wheel bearing". As mentioned many times, other marques with single-sided swingarms (Triumph, Ducati, Honda, BMW) manage to achieve this design without any play, surely KTM stripped a few of those bikes during the design phase to see how it should be done?
I'm a Mechanical Engineer and this issue screams one thing to me: Design Fault - replacing a faulty part with another of the same design will just perpetuate the issue. I think it was Einstein who described Insanity as doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome.
I used to work for Caterpillar who, being a US company, are extremely litigation-conscious and with this in mind I find it incredible that of all the KTM importers, the ones being the least receptive to customer complaints about an obvious design flaw are the North American ones! I don't know what the latest situation regarding wheel hub play is as the thread side-tracked onto the issue of water captive within the hub towards the later posts, but KTM should have done the honourable thing and redesigned the hub to eliminate the play and then issued a recall for all previously-manufactured bikes.
If the issue persists, I'd urge any owner of a new 1290 with the problem to take the bike to an independent garage that does vehicle tests (or find an independent vehicle Engineer somewhere) and get them to evaluate it and then ask them to put it in writing that the amount of play present would constitute a vehicle test failure and then find a friendly lawyer to write to the importer and threaten a lawsuit on behalf of all the aggrieved owners - that would certainly make KTM NA sit up and take notice.
I spend a lot of my spare time working for an Endurance racing team and I've done a couple of years looking after wheels, tyres and brakes and believe me, any wheel bearing showing detectable play is immediately replaced, long before there's 1mm of measurable movement at the wheel rim. You guys have been fobbed off by tossers in Marketing telling you that play is acceptable. That's just bollocks.
Fortunately for me, my 990 has a normal swingarm, not a fashion victim single-sided jobbie. When I see them on MotoGP bikes is when I'll be convinced that they're anything other than a style accessory. Form should follow function, not the other way round.
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Re: Rear hub numbers affected.

Postby ktmguy » Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:15 am

Scotty wrote:Morning all, work's a little quiet so I checked "new posts" on the forum and found this little odyssey and read through all 15 pages...
I have to say that I'm staggered at KTM's attitude to this issue, stating that "1mm of play is acceptable" - what a load of crap! I don't know about elsewhere in the world but in the UK any vehicle (bike or car) requires an annual vehicle test once it reaches three years of age, and a bike with 1mm of play (or less) in the rear wheel would be failed by any tester as "having excessive play in the wheel bearing". As mentioned many times, other marques with single-sided swingarms (Triumph, Ducati, Honda, BMW) manage to achieve this design without any play, surely KTM stripped a few of those bikes during the design phase to see how it should be done?
I'm a Mechanical Engineer and this issue screams one thing to me: Design Fault - replacing a faulty part with another of the same design will just perpetuate the issue. I think it was Einstein who described Insanity as doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome.
I used to work for Caterpillar who, being a US company, are extremely litigation-conscious and with this in mind I find it incredible that of all the KTM importers, the ones being the least receptive to customer complaints about an obvious design flaw are the North American ones! I don't know what the latest situation regarding wheel hub play is as the thread side-tracked onto the issue of water captive within the hub towards the later posts, but KTM should have done the honourable thing and redesigned the hub to eliminate the play and then issued a recall for all previously-manufactured bikes.
If the issue persists, I'd urge any owner of a new 1290 with the problem to take the bike to an independent garage that does vehicle tests (or find an independent vehicle Engineer somewhere) and get them to evaluate it and then ask them to put it in writing that the amount of play present would constitute a vehicle test failure and then find a friendly lawyer to write to the importer and threaten a lawsuit on behalf of all the aggrieved owners - that would certainly make KTM NA sit up and take notice.
I spend a lot of my spare time working for an Endurance racing team and I've done a couple of years looking after wheels, tyres and brakes and believe me, any wheel bearing showing detectable play is immediately replaced, long before there's 1mm of measurable movement at the wheel rim. You guys have been fobbed off by tossers in Marketing telling you that play is acceptable. That's just bollocks.
Fortunately for me, my 990 has a normal swingarm, not a fashion victim single-sided jobbie. When I see them on MotoGP bikes is when I'll be convinced that they're anything other than a style accessory. Form should follow function, not the other way round.


Totally agree! A couple of updates are on order however.
In Australia all faulty hub assemblies are replaced by KTM Australia under warranty. My '14 was done and I never had an issue again. My '15 is fine, no problems. People who still have a problem here should contact their dealer and if they don't get a positive response go to another one!
As far as we know the issue was an undersize axle, this should be corrected by now in manufacturing hence the number of complaints added to this tread has slowed to an almost halt.
I know and I felt the same way that initial response was very slow and ignorant to say the least! However again In Australia and most parts of Europe the issue has been corrected.
That only leaves several countries where obviously someone is playing hard to get and the most shocking one must be the US! Can't see why as a European brand trying to go big in the states with both dirtbikes and road bikes KTM wants that blemish on their record. Hopefully for the people left hanging something happens and fast! UK not sure if old mate Bernie there still has some say, or if he is cleaning the toilets at the British circuits when a race is on. (as he should)
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Re: Rear hub numbers affected.

Postby iannowi » Thu Jul 23, 2015 6:06 pm

iannowi wrote:i had my rear hub re-torqued during its first service last year. It now has approx 6k miles on the clock. Its been ok since, until last week when i noticed knocking noises coming from the rear hub.
i removed the chain off the rear sprocket and rolled the bike around on the drive, thinking it could possibly be a tight spot on the chain. I still get the knocking noise from the hub. Could it be the bearing?


update - today I rode the bike to the dealers,approx 20 miles.
The mechanic came out and had a quick look at the bike, rolled it around the garage etc- guess what, no knocking noise from the rear hub, I felt an idiot trying to convince them that there was definately a knocking noise before I set off.
About 15mins later they removed the bike off the paddock stand and started to push the bike out of the garage..hey presto there was the knocking sound once again, clearly audible.
Ive left the bike at the dealers, who will have a closer inspection in the morning.

Im thinking, whilst the hub was hot after the 20mile ride - no noise...once it had cooled down again - noise is back

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Re: Rear hub numbers affected.

Postby Gearhead » Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:45 pm

I have play in mine here in Canada. It's tight when cold and sloppy when hot. However I measured and it is not beyond 1mm. It's at the dealers now. My bike is also affected by the fuel tank recall.

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Re: Rear hub numbers affected.

Postby Wa2fst » Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:57 am

Just turned mine in for the wobbly hub. It has been tight but i noticed after a wash then ride there were heavy grease flings across the wheel and what i thought was excessive brake dust. But after riding and feeling the wheel feel a little squirrely i checked the wheel and its cleatly rocking back n forth. Even cooled down not as much but very noticeable. I believe that its not brake dust but metal parts giving each other a rub down. We will see what the outcome is.
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Re: Rear hub numbers affected.

Postby Wa2fst » Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:22 pm

So dealer told me i had a loose nut. They checked everything out put back torqued back to spec...i have no idea about a loose nut.but that was the call
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Re: Rear hub numbers affected.

Postby steveberde » Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:06 am

Have you taken it back to the dealer? Shown him the "metal parts?"
Updates please



Wa2fst wrote:Just turned mine in for the wobbly hub. It has been tight but i noticed after a wash then ride there were heavy grease flings across the wheel and what i thought was excessive brake dust. But after riding and feeling the wheel feel a little squirrely i checked the wheel and its cleatly rocking back n forth. Even cooled down not as much but very noticeable. I believe that its not brake dust but metal parts giving each other a rub down. We will see what the outcome is.
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Re: Rear hub numbers affected.

Postby ilmothefinn » Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:00 am

My 2014 had it - even I didn't notice anything - and dealer replaced the hub. Seems ok now.

Wife's 2015 is ok.
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Re: Rear hub numbers affected.

Postby ilmothefinn » Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:24 am

Now, wouldn't it be nice to have it like Ducati has?

I looked at at those fine pics at Ducati Forum... it's here - thanks for the person who first gave this link, maybe it was mentioned already just on this topic but, bless me, again... : http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=844unsvgb28mn4sb4fstnbgeh5&topic=34425.msg599273#msg599273

Good pictures!

There are three things that seem to be better than by KTM

1) the hub cavity and swingarm cavity seem to be separate - maybe it doesn't collect water...

2) there are two bolts for locking the chain adjustment - maybe it keeps the hub more in line...

3) there is a groove in the ring - or is it a baseplate - under the large nut (on the brake disc end of the axle) - maybe it centers itself better on the axle because the nut tends to go centered on the threads and if there is not much play between the baseplate and nut, well...

It is not out of question to have some small upgrade on this - like the large nut and the baseplate as a joined-together unit or something...

Now, better inspect periodically the rear sprocket cush drive too on the KTM, it might deteriorate and do some grinding too, just like in the Ducati monster case had happened!

I really did find some drops of water (it seemed clear so it may be condenced water) on both of our bikes so maybe some drilling has to be done (or other ideas used to drain the swingarm cavity)...
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Re: Rear hub numbers affected.

Postby ilmothefinn » Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:11 pm

ilmothefinn wrote:My 2014 had it - even I didn't notice anything - and dealer replaced the hub. Seems ok now.

Wife's 2015 is ok.


Actually I don't know if they replaced hub or the axle - or maybe both. Or only bearings... Anyhow, some operations they did do, because the axle (60mm) nut was without lubrication, as I experienced it when dissassembling (in purpose to drill water-outlet-hole into the swingarm cavity)...
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Re: Rear hub numbers affected.

Postby lc4 » Tue Mar 15, 2016 6:43 am

While fitting Kev`s ABS rings I decided to pull my rear hub apart to see if water was getting in, found hub and swingarm cavity dry however some discolouration of shaft and inner race of bearing on sprocket side.
I think that this is one possibility of ingress of water as the seal on this side runs on a steel collar and there is no actual seal between the collar and shaft. I packed a bit of grease in this area also to aid in removal of the sprocket carrier spline which is a problem to remove if a bit of corrosion sets in.
If your washing your bike go easy around the area of the rear axle nut on the sprocket side. :wink:

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Re: Rear hub numbers affected.

Postby BullGator » Sun Mar 20, 2016 7:15 pm

question. With no rear or center stand how can I check for hub play?
:lol: Sometimes you just gotta race it out :lol:

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Re: Rear hub numbers affected.

Postby REDTALE2000 » Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:26 pm

Actually, the best way to "feel" it, i.e. non-dial gauge, is with bike on side stand.
From left side of bike, grab top of rear tyre at about 1 o'clock position and push-pull fairly hard and rapidly.
If you've got play, you'll feel a noticeable klunk with each direction reversal.
Don't pay any attention to the apparent motion since, even with zero play, there will be a lot of motion with tyre and swingarm flex.
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Re: Rear hub numbers affected.

Postby abc » Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:50 am

REDTALE2000 wrote:Don't pay any attention to the apparent motion since, even with zero play, there will be a lot of motion with tyre and swingarm flex.

I dont think you should be able to "feel" any swingarm flex - I measured everything with a dial indicator and the swingarm did not show any signs of flex when checking for hub freeplay using the methods you describe.
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Re: Rear hub numbers affected.

Postby Roja » Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:35 pm

Mine just went in for it this evening. The rear hub bearing is gone. It moves a lot!!!
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Re: Rear hub numbers affected.

Postby Roja » Wed May 04, 2016 9:35 pm

Fwiw, SDR GT 2016 swingarm has a drain hole in it!!!

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Re: Rear hub numbers affected.

Postby abc » Thu May 05, 2016 10:12 am

Roja wrote:Fwiw, SDR GT 2016 swingarm has a drain hole in it!!!

Interesting - could you describe exactly where they have put the hole or maybe someone that has that model can post a pick.
thanks
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Re: Rear hub numbers affected.

Postby Roja » Thu May 05, 2016 5:45 pm

I believe it's right where the swingarm collects water (at the front edge of the outer diameter of the rear hub bearings, between the two of them).
The local dealer actually started doing it to the bikes that have come in with a rusted bearing problem. Of course, they replaced the bearings and then they drilled a little hole also.

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Re: Rear hub numbers affected.

Postby DaveNZ » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:06 pm

Wa2fst wrote:So dealer told me i had a loose nut. They checked everything out put back torqued back to spec...i have no idea about a loose nut.but that was the call

I would presume it was the main wheel nut (60 mm i think) after doing 2800Ks on the origonal Dunlops, i purchased a 60mm socket, bike on stand, removed wheel nut lock clips, put socket and brake bar on ready to (with all my might) remove the rear nut and wheel, to my surprise the nut was (NOT tight) it spun off easily. so that part was easy. fitted new tyre (M7RR, brilliant tyres) resembled to recommended torque. So all good, then one year after purchase i thought id ge a new warrant of fitness at the local testing station. well the 1290 failed, too much rear wheel play. i rode the 220Ks to the KTM bike shop, told the guys of the failed warrant, they were skeptical, the head mechanic took the bike away, i returned 2 hours later, to see a new warrant, and a new swing arm hub axle. lukily they had had one in stock, (wrong part had been sent) mechanic said, yes there was too much play, and replaced it, no hesitation. i must stress, we have a great KTM shop, and work shop here in hamilton, can't speak highly enough of them. and one reason why I've brought another 1290. plus they are faking awesome.
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Re: Rear hub numbers affected.

Postby vernonbc » Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:39 pm

I think I am about to put a little twist on this subject. I just pulled my axle and hub from the swingarm after about 10000 miles. Time for new rubber so I thought what the heck, lets pull the axle and hub while I am there. My bike has only been ridden in light rain 3 times otherwise I am a dry weather rider only. When I pulled the axle, my axle looked exactly like the axle in "dflowers" picture. The grease on the bearings inside the hub looked pretty normal, not white but that fluorescent greenish color of motorex grease. On the wheel side bearing it was more of a blackish color. There was absolutely no sign of water entering the hub or the swingarm. The swingarms hub "hole" looked very clean. When I inspected everything, I can see no way for water to enter into the hub from the swingarm cavity as the hub is pretty well sealed with exception of a hole on top of the hub and a hole facing the front of the bike (not sure why this one is threaded). If water is entering the hub, my guess is that it is entering from either the left or right side of the hub through the grease seal. Once water enters, there is no way for it to drain out of the hub other than through evaporation. As for the 2 holes in the hub, I can see no way for water to enter due to their location when the hub is correctly aligned.

I am in the process of cleaning and inspecting the entire swingarm, hub and axle to see if I can see any other way that water can enter the hub. Will report if I find anything.
Maybe some of the pro's on here who have already taken the hub out can see something that I missed.

If you are planning on removing the hub, make sure you have a piece of wood and a hammer, the hub is a b***h to get out of the swingarm.

EDIT for Correctio:
Just found out that the holes in the hub are as follows: Threaded hole facing front of bike and the other hole is actually on the bottom of the hub NOT on the top. My guess is that hole,
about .25 inches diameter, is for water drainage. That would explain the water inside the swingarm. I still think the water is entering through the seal, probably on the sprocket side.

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Re: Rear hub numbers affected.

Postby ilmothefinn » Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:42 am

There were some pictures of a long-time test bike at german site but one of the people there figured it like an engineering guy does - he said there is actually not so much risk of a wheel dropping suddenly on the road because the large roller bearing is not responsible of sideways pressure - the 2 ball bearings at the sprocket side are. And if one of them or both become hot and stick it will make a sideways force that moves and destroys the sprocket impact rubbers (nr. 61310059000 JAR DAMPER) like they did in the Ducati-forum-pictures... Most likely a cause of it might be water diluting from the sprocket side on the axle and through the rubber seral (nr. 0760526880 SHAFT SEAL RING 52X68X8) and to the 2 bearings (nr. 0625061909 DEEP GROOVE BALL BEARING 61909). So better check these (and the roller bearing too nr. 0617456822 NEEDLE BEARING RNA4909-2RSR-XL) are in pristine condition... Easy to do each year, I think.

The hub moves easy sideways if you put something (I used some plastic 2-3mm thick particle) to strech the hub collar more open (you have to remove the m16 collar screw to have it open), just strech it carefully with a screwdriver a buit and put something between the gap...

And during riding season, just a look after each ride if the axle gets hot... That axle is thin so it cools down fast too.

Bad Karma sometimes but I think better to get used to some not-so-perfect things... :oops:
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Re: Rear hub numbers affected.

Postby chrisRR » Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:08 am

So, what is experienced while riding an affected bike? Is there something obvious to look for, e.g. weirdness while cornering etc? I can feel a little play in my rear wheel if I grab it at 1 O'clock and give it a good shake but the play is minor, certainly no clunking etc (2014 bike).

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Re: Rear hub numbers affected.

Postby Growler48 » Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:05 pm

chrisRR wrote:So, what is experienced while riding an affected bike? Is there something obvious to look for, e.g. weirdness while cornering etc? I can feel a little play in my rear wheel if I grab it at 1 O'clock and give it a good shake but the play is minor, certainly no clunking etc (2014 bike).


You shouldn't be able to feel anything while riding. Mine has been like yours for the last 9500 miles and it has never changed that I can tell. It's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned and I've all but forgotten about it.
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Re: Rear hub numbers affected.

Postby Joe Biker » Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:23 pm

I had minor play in my 14 had dealer retorque the hub
to the new specs n play was gone.
Have hub torqued at every service and have no play in hub.

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Re: Rear hub numbers affected.

Postby vernonbc » Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:13 pm

This past winter I pulled the rear hub just to check everything as I also am a victim of hub play (2014). As I do not ride in the rain unless caught in it, my axle and bearing looked very good. I cleaned and re-greased everything and torqued everything back to the original spec of 200Nm. The end result was that the play was almost completely gone. It is still there but greatly reduced.
If at all possible I would probably try to make an effort to re-torque both the rear wheel and the axle nut. My wheel nut was not torqued to spec (very easy to undo) and my guess is the the axle nut was not torqued to spec either.
Heat cycling the axle a few times and re-torquing the nut may get rid of the play completely.

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