Clutch Slipping

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DMacL
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby DMacL » Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:58 am

I had been wondering why they don't just play with the sizes of the hydraulic components of the clutch to adjust clutch feel, but it just clicked now that changing springs must be much much cheaper than re-tooling to produce different size clutch slave & masters.

Roja
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby Roja » Sun Dec 06, 2015 1:22 pm

No question about it, the clutch slips. I have two 2015 SDR1290s, and they both do it between 6500 and 8500 rpm in 4th and 5th WOT.

See point #1:
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=25983

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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby Roja » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:21 pm

Some form of proof: https://youtu.be/gQGKd0j9eAk


Thanks KTM!

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tonyteeth
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby tonyteeth » Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:09 am

Roja wrote:No question about it, the clutch slips. I have two 2015 SDR1290s, and they both do it between 6500 and 8500 rpm in 4th and 5th WOT.

See point #1:
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=25983


Just curious, are you using the recommended Motorex oil? I switched to another oil and now I'm wondering if I should go back to Motorex

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ktmguy
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby ktmguy » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:27 am

tonyteeth wrote:
Roja wrote:No question about it, the clutch slips. I have two 2015 SDR1290s, and they both do it between 6500 and 8500 rpm in 4th and 5th WOT.

See point #1:
http://www.superduke.net/forum/viewtopi ... 29&t=25983


Just curious, are you using the recommended Motorex oil? I switched to another oil and now I'm wondering if I should go back to Motorex


I heard motorex helps. My '15 did it a bit before first oil change, uses motorex and it stopped.
Not a fan of motorex so hopefully it doesn't come back when I do next non motorex oil change.
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Roja
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby Roja » Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:26 am

My KTM dealer used Motul. I'll switch to Motorex. Sounds like an easy fix!!!

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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby Op_Engineer » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:31 pm

Roja wrote:My KTM dealer used Motul. I'll switch to Motorex. Sounds like an easy fix!!!

I'm no KTM expert, but it seems to me that a significant number of complaints are from owners who are using "other" oils that look great on paper but are causing clutch slippage. I have owned several bikes that would act funny when shifting after changing to "other" spec oils.

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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby murphc13 » Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:44 am

My bike has Motorex and its slipping.Well that's if the dealer actually did the service.....wouldn't put it past the shower of c€nt$

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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby SUPER DUKE #1 » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:59 am

That's the biggest conflict with motorcycle engine oils. Ever since the development of "super synthetic" engine oils mainly for the automobile and truck industry, petroleum manufactures are always trying to reduce friction, extend the oil's life to 10,000+ miles for fewer oil changes to save oil, and then trying to increase fuel economy for government regulations by also reducing friction and then the lowly device that's job is to make as much friction as possible the CLUTCH loses the battle. The only way for the clutch to win this battle is to either run in its own clutch performance oil independent of the engine oil, go to an air cooled clutch, (not good for street use) or find an oil that doesn't use friction modifiers, still lubricates the engine and transmission components and still allows the clutch to make enough friction to keep it from slipping. This is not as hard as it seems because very few motorcycles or owners go the distances that automobiles go or are expected to go between oil changes. Motorex changed the name of the Legend mineral oil to Sportmax 4T and this is the best motorcycle engine oil to use IMO especially if you change your oil more frequently than the bike's maintenance schedule. It has the least potential for clutch slippage bar none (except maybe if you have some late '90's or earlier diesel mineral oil :wink: ). http://motorexusa.com/products/atv/4-st ... portmax-4t

For me I use Motorex semi-synthetic or Motorex Sportmax 4T mineral/petroleum oil and change it at half the maintenance schedule.

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ktmguy
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby ktmguy » Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:32 am

Op_Engineer wrote:
Roja wrote:My KTM dealer used Motul. I'll switch to Motorex. Sounds like an easy fix!!!

I'm no KTM expert, but it seems to me that a significant number of complaints are from owners who are using "other" oils that look great on paper but are causing clutch slippage. I have owned several bikes that would act funny when shifting after changing to "other" spec oils.


I don't rate motorex that good, I do know that their products are highly modified and have special additives in it.
It doesn't make it better, necessarily, it is just another way to get to the desired result.
In strictly my opinion Motul is a better oil and others like elf, silcolene and many more are at least as good as motorex.
I used elf-total for many years with great success.

That clutch thing is weird and it seems like a ploy to make ktm owners use motorex.
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tonyteeth
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby tonyteeth » Wed Dec 09, 2015 11:49 pm

I've been involved in several oil discussions over the years. What are we looking for? Sheer stability and anti-sudsing/foaming would be 2 things important our discussion. I've used Shell Rotella Syn for many years because I've seen good numbers in those areas. I just put it in my 1290 a couple weeks ago for the first time. Maybe in a case of minimum clutch spring strength, other oils are just too "slick"? I'm certainly no expert, just putting in my 2 cents. This is the first time in my life that I'm willing to buy into the theory. I'm going back to Motorex until more questions are answered.

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ktmguy
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby ktmguy » Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:15 am

tonyteeth wrote:I've been involved in several oil discussions over the years. What are we looking for? Sheer stability and anti-sudsing/foaming would be 2 things important our discussion. I've used Shell Rotella Syn for many years because I've seen good numbers in those areas. I just put it in my 1290 a couple weeks ago for the first time. Maybe in a case of minimum clutch spring strength, other oils are just too "slick"? I'm certainly no expert, just putting in my 2 cents. This is the first time in my life that I'm willing to buy into the theory. I'm going back to Motorex until more questions are answered.


In theory all full synthetic motorbike oils and full synthetic oils without friction modifiers of the correct grade should be fine in this bike. (including EU car 10 W60 like penrite and others as it doesn't have friction modifiers)
Rotella Syn is a good example and heaps of people used this with great success in motorbike engines for ages without any problems.
It seems KTM is preferring soft clutch action over stopping the plates to slip. It is not only in the 1290 but also in some dirt bikes.
Some oils might mask this or worsen it but that doesn't mean that the oil is bad or to blame!

In some of the dirtbikes models KTM changed the clutch springs in the next model year....
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dflowers
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby dflowers » Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:29 pm

My bike has always run Motorex and the clutch slips, but in normal everyday riding it is OK. I only saw the clutch slipping on the dyno at full power. I want to get some stronger springs but info is sketchy on which ones to get. I have read that Hayabusa springs work but there are different springs for different years of Hayabusas. Also someone mentioned RC8 springs but I think those turned out to be no different than 1290 springs. Could be wrong though. So for now I have the stock springs.

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kevxtx
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby kevxtx » Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:22 am

There is no slip on my 1290 & my mates 2014 clutch, both measured on the Dyno from 154 to around 183 rear wheel HP, motorex oil used, using Dyno drum RPM verse engine RPM to measure slippage. I wonder what they changed on the 15's.

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ma1290rky
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby ma1290rky » Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:10 pm

I've had clutch slip once whilst on track only and towards the end of the session as said before 4th & 5th pinned wide open.

Forgot to mention it to my dealer so I'll ask them to have a closer look at the first annual service. Bike has covered 6k miles.

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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby Roja » Tue Dec 15, 2015 7:00 am

Fwiw, my dealer went to the highest level with this issue and was given the following info:

The clutch should not slip, regardless of using Motorex or Motul. They took apart my clutch and saw that the plates were well within normal wear-specs (as in, they were fine). The tolerances/play was slightly adjusted, and then they had a look at the handle side of things. Apparently, when the engine heats up and things start to be pushed a little harder, the clutch lever doesn't have enough play and ever so slightly pushes the little rod that it rests on (which pushes in the clutch cylinder on the handle - pardon my lack of knowledge of tech terms).

Mine is the second bike they've fixed last week. On the first, they ground down the actuating rod a little, but on mine, they decided to grind the handle itself down a little (like 1 mm).

Again, I was assured that it is NOT oil related and that slippage is unacceptable. This info comes from KTM tech support for mechanics (some form of last resort / top level hotline. Lol)

Both the other gentleman (to whom I've spoken) and I seem to no longer have slippage happening.

Of course, now that I've solved it, I've been looking at the Rekluse auto-clutch kit, which another colleague put on his SDR. He's now the terror of Barcelona, leaving every stoplight wheelying, while waving at people with his left hand (I'm exaggerating a little, but he's having the time of his life with that auto-clutch)

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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby Roja » Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:27 pm

I'm so happy that I managed to spew that diatribe of crap. Took her out today, and sure as shite, got her to slip out in 4th, 5th, and 6th.

So, my choices are the following four:
1. Replace the slipper plate with a regular plate.
2. Replace springs with stronger ones (Hyabusa)
3. By a Rekluse
4. Hope that KTM will solve it for me (hahahahahahaha!)

murphc13
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby murphc13 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:37 pm

KTM won't do shit IMO

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Turkishexpress
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby Turkishexpress » Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:16 am

Sorry to divert the thread a little but is the Reklus auto clutch really recommended for street use? Any downsides?
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Roja
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby Roja » Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:54 am

A friend (and I believe he's also on here) installed it and is enjoying the heck out of it!


Murphc13, I share your opinion wholeheartedly.

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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby SUPER DUKE #1 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:40 pm

Roja wrote:I'm so happy that I managed to spew that diatribe of crap. Took her out today, and sure as shite, got her to slip out in 4th, 5th, and 6th.

So, my choices are the following four:
1. Replace the slipper plate with a regular plate.
2. Replace springs with stronger ones (Hyabusa)
3. By a Rekluse
4. Hope that KTM will solve it for me (hahahahahahaha!)


Your clutch friction plates are probably so impregnated with friction modifiers from the fully synthetic oil and the clutch springs so heat damaged and sacked out (shorter than original length), that even if you changed oil to petroleum/mineral it would do you any good. I would have the dealer get KTM to warranty a clutch kit with all new plates and stock springs and an oil filter kit with some good old "break-in oil" (petroleum/mineral) and start over. If your bike's clutch didn't slip when you first got it and didn't slip with the original factory filled Motorex mineral break-in oil then to me from my experience I would look at the problem being oil related. 2-cents. Your dealer can get KTM to warranty a new set of clutch plates, springs and oil....DAMHIK :wink:

Silverbear
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby Silverbear » Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:17 pm

Does STM make a slipper clutch for the 1290?Very good product.I have been running one in my 990 for almost 80,000kms with many a track and has worked great.The STM has never locked the back wheel under extreme down shifts on the track and has never slipped under drive.Been using Moterex 10 /60 for 130,000 kms.Cheers

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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby wsmc99 » Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:41 pm

Roja wrote:I'm so happy that I managed to spew that diatribe of crap. Took her out today, and sure as shite, got her to slip out in 4th, 5th, and 6th.

So, my choices are the following four:
1. Replace the slipper plate with a regular plate.
2. Replace springs with stronger ones (Hyabusa)
3. By a Rekluse
4. Hope that KTM will solve it for me (hahahahahahaha!)


Taking some material off the pin still seems a valid approach.
I'm not sure that taking material out of the lever itself would be as effective/sound.
Perhaps the damage was already done to the plates? What is the mileage on your bike?
My bike is just under 600 miles and I have ordered (picking up today) the stock spacers that rest under the springs (Measured .52mm thick) to further shim the springs.
Will also look at taking a bit off the plunger pin at the lever.

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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby wsmc99 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:24 pm

I rode my bike last weekend and tried to get it to slip in 4th or 5th gear to no avail (Good!).
Yesterday I did an oil change (~700 miles) to 5-40 Rotella T6 from Castrol GTX 10-40.
While I was going over the bike I also took apart the lever and pulled the pin from the master.
The pin is hardened and beveled at both ends so I chose to drill the aluminium lever insert the pin goes into.
I only took about .40mm out of it to gain a little more clearance if things expand while hot.
Still have the spring spacers in pocket in case, but will run again to see where we are at.

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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby harold » Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:45 pm

Read a road test on the new 2016 1290 Adventure, which mentioned they put heavier springs in this bike for sustained high speed driving.

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