Clutch Slipping

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wsmc99
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby wsmc99 » Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:23 pm

harold wrote:Read a road test on the new 2016 1290 Adventure, which mentioned they put heavier springs in this bike for sustained high speed driving.

Do you have a link to that?

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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby harold » Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:07 pm

No link, but the article was in the newest Cycle World.

wsmc99
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby wsmc99 » Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:34 pm

2015 1290 Adv is the same clutch springs, can't find a '16 parts fiche, but will check with my dealer tomorrow to see.
Checked 2016 Fiche, same part as the SDR no update.

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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby OzWarren » Sat Jan 30, 2016 4:10 pm

Hi all,

I have had some issues with my 2015 1290R where the clutch slips in 5th and 6th (it's got ~10,000 miles on the clock). However it has to be said that I have had my fair share of clutch issues with KTMs over the years - but that's another story...

Anyhow, they have stated that this may be due to clutch springs as mentioned elsewhere in this thread since the 1290 uses the same clutch springs as the 1190 Adventure and this has been known to cause problems in a few cases with the 1290. I'm guessing that since it doesn't affect all bikes they haven't issued a recall, but I got the whole clutch replaced under warranty so whichever dealer mentioned that it could be due to the way someone rides mentioned earlier in this thread needs shooting; I use my 1290 every day to commute into London, covering in total around 120 miles and was told something similar when my 690 fell apart due to clutch issues. This is absolute rubbish; for a brand that has supposedly proven itself time and time again in the offroad arena, I am doubtful that any road riders put their street bikes through anywhere near the level of punishment you'd expect offroad, but maybe I'm wrong...

Anyway - get the dealer to fix it under warranty (assuming it still is), and just make a note of everything so you're covered.

I've just got back after having the whole clutch replaced, and it's still slipping in 6th, although not 5th... So it's better, but not fixed.

They'll be speaking with KTM on Monday, so I'll keep you posted on what they suggest next (maybe the clutch is made of cheese or something).

Cheers,

Oz
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ilmothefinn
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby ilmothefinn » Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:26 am

harold wrote:No link, but the article was in the newest Cycle World.


They mentioned that "The clutch is also 10 percent stronger to allow extended high-speed running", but didn't mention how it is arranged - is it trough the stronger 3 springs or altered ramps at the mechanism that increases the palte pressure when accelerating (and allow clutch to slip when decelerating). Probably they had to alter both, because stiffer springs mean less easy slipper clutch action when downshifting and decelerating...

Magazines seem to be not always so accurate, the "A new straight-through muffler with an internal flapper valve " at least looks to me like the muffler is the same see-though as before but there is a wire-operated exup-valve just between cat and muffler...
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby Roja » Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:36 am

+1 OzWarren

Replacing clutch doesn't change much, but it'll end up costing KTM. I got two new clutches under warranty and was still getting slippage. I have since changed to a Rekluse EXP auto-clutch.

I have clutch slippage on video.



Thanks KTM!
Last edited by Roja on Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ilmothefinn
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby ilmothefinn » Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:01 pm

Roja wrote:+1 OzWarren

Replacing clutch doesn't change much, but it'll end up costing KTM. I got two new clutches under warranty and was still getting slippage. I have since changed to a Rekluse EXP auto-clutch.

I've even have clutch slippage on video. http://youtu.be/gQGKd0j9eAk

Thanks KTM!


Now, THAT was something! Clutch slips real easy, it seems. Nothing like I have encountered yet... Hope I won't!
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby grim990 » Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:28 am

ilmothefinn wrote:
harold wrote:No link, but the article was in the newest Cycle World.


They mentioned that "The clutch is also 10 percent stronger to allow extended high-speed running", but didn't mention how it is arranged - is it trough the stronger 3 springs or altered ramps at the mechanism that increases the palte pressure when accelerating (and allow clutch to slip when decelerating). Probably they had to alter both, because stiffer springs mean less easy slipper clutch action when downshifting and decelerating...

Magazines seem to be not always so accurate, the "A new straight-through muffler with an internal flapper valve " at least looks to me like the muffler is the same see-though as before but there is a wire-operated exup-valve just between cat and muffler...


I've looked into this a bit and checked some part numbers while at the dealer today. The new Superduke GT will have different springs. I can only assume they are stiffer. The Superduke R says something like Clutch Spring (Green) while the GT says Clutch Spring (Orange) and we verified the part numbers are different. All the other clutch components were the same. The network at the dealer was not working so he had no idea if they are available yet or not.

It may also be worth noting that the 2013+ RC8R uses the same clutch, but different springs than the Adventure, Superduke R, and Superduke GT, and that some of the models use a washer behind the spring (possibly for added preload) while some do not. I think I'm going to get the GT springs for both my Superduke R and RC8R.

On a side note, my 2011 RC8R, which I only use for racing, has the clutch out of an 1190 Adventure that I used to have (which now has a non-slipper stock RC8R clutch swapped in it) and I didn't have any clutch slippage. It's been in since mid-season last year so it has probably 3 race weekends and some track days on it. If you're wondering why I did that it's because my RC8R destroyed 2 Yoyodyne slipper clutches and I wanted a slipper and had a perfectly good one sitting right there in my (former) Adventure 1190, so in it went. Regardless, now that I know there are different spring options out there, I'm going to replace those Adventure springs with either the GT ones or the ones that came in the RC8R when it got the slipper.

TLDR: Big twins are hard on clutches.

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ilmothefinn
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby ilmothefinn » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:15 am

Now that is a good advice... I don't race but said earlier that ride it like a tractor so was a bit worried of having sudden full throttle at high gears and low rews... Once encountered, while being sloppy at downshifting at corners that the slipper clutch isn't so much of a slipper - more like a bouncer... Well, sure depends on gear, load and friction on the rear tyre... Normally I like to go smooth with giving adequate amount of throttle at downshifts, goes with the play so to say. But GT springs, will ask for them at the dealer...
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby wsmc99 » Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:52 am

The new Superduke GT will have different springs. I can only assume they are stiffer. The Superduke R says something like Clutch Spring (Green) while the GT says Clutch Spring (Orange) and we verified the part numbers are different.


Do you have the part number?

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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby abc » Tue May 24, 2016 11:30 am

wsmc99 wrote:
The new Superduke GT will have different springs. I can only assume they are stiffer. The Superduke R says something like Clutch Spring (Green) while the GT says Clutch Spring (Orange) and we verified the part numbers are different.


Do you have the part number?


Has there been any news of this and has anyone tried different springs to fix this problem. If you replaced the springs or even just shimmed them did you notice any problems with the slipper action.
Has anyone attempted to increase the stack height for remedy?
Does removing material from the pin or lever actually been a proven fix?
Thanks.
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby Plake » Tue May 24, 2016 12:26 pm

Also noticing slip in 4th, 5th and 6th above about 7k rpm. Brand new SD1290R. Impossible for the dealer to replicate given nature of problem and local laws. Had a chat to them yesterday and they advise that all they can do is check the clutch springs are within normal range of activation and if so, nothing else can be done.

It's not the end of the world but it's an annoyance and ruins the top end on the rare occasions I get up there on a track, officer.

murphc13
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby murphc13 » Tue May 24, 2016 1:27 pm

If Sigma do an aftermarket clutch then that might be worth buying!!
Their stuff is solid!!!

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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby abc » Wed May 25, 2016 3:52 am

murphc13 wrote:If Sigma do an aftermarket clutch then that might be worth buying!!
Their stuff is solid!!!

Im sure their product is good but there must be a fix for the existing set up - its only a clutch after all!
Seems there are a few people that say they are going to do this and that and report back but never do :roll:
Has anyone actually got of their ass and fixed this problem by modifying the existing clutch pack?
Thanks.
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby murphc13 » Wed May 25, 2016 3:58 am

abc wrote:
murphc13 wrote:If Sigma do an aftermarket clutch then that might be worth buying!!
Their stuff is solid!!!

Im sure their product is good but there must be a fix for the existing set up - its only a clutch after all!
Seems there are a few people that say they are going to do this and that and report back but never do :roll:
Has anyone actually got of their ass and fixed this problem by modifying the existing clutch pack?
Thanks.

Bunch of lazy bastids this lot mate:)

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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby abc » Wed May 25, 2016 5:51 am

Image
So here are the clutches out of the other 1290 models. Left is super adventurer and right is superduke GT.
You can see the springs are a different color and it is common for the spring specs to change with the color. It look like the GT has stiffer springs than the adventurer! I will speculate that the 1290 sdr springs are the same as the adventurer springs, but I cant confirm this yet!

So now my question is: is there any members that have a good relationship with their dealers that can find out the spring specs based on their color? Or if the GT springs are indeed stiffer than the stock 1290 sdr springs??

I cant find a pic of the stock 1290 sdr clutch to see if the springs are different.
Anyone have anything to add to help so I can sort this problem for good :?:
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Plake
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby Plake » Wed May 25, 2016 6:06 am

I've noticed the clutch slips more under higher load (ie blasting uphill or into a strong headwind). I'm betting that KTM were forced to strengthen the springs given the likely aerodynamic properties of the superduck.

Are they otherwise broadly identical clutches? If so then KTM are tacitly accepting that there is an issue and should replace the springs in the R if it bothers the rider.

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lc4
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby lc4 » Wed May 25, 2016 6:45 am

1290R Clutch spring colour is noted as GREEN in the parts manual.

Interesting note below from the KTM online brochure.


The slipper clutch on the KTM 1290 SUPER DUKE R automatically takes the pressure from the clutch plates when engine back-torque becomes too high. This effectively prevents rear wheel chatter when braking sharply. In addition, the clutch increases pressure on the clutch plates with increasing engine torque, thereby allowing softer clutch springs to be used. This reduces the hand strength required for hydraulic actuation of the clutch – now it can be controlled with just one finger

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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby lc4 » Wed May 25, 2016 7:23 am

May not come down to spring pressure if you consider the attached video.
Not A KTM however the design is the same.



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lc4
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby lc4 » Wed May 25, 2016 7:57 am

A larger clutch oil jet may help keep things running a bit cooler and reduce friction on the slipper ramps?

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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby abc » Wed May 25, 2016 10:05 am

if the ramp angles are not enough to lock all the plates together under hard acceleration then an increase in spring pressure will still be helpful in stopping clutch slip. Remember an increase in spring force is multiplied by the number of springs and this total additional force is applied over each of the 10 or so plates. So a relatively small spring force change will make a good bit of difference.
It looks like it might be worth investigating the GT springs as long as the lever doesn't become impossible and the slipper action is still effective.
Modifying the oil jet could just bath the plates in too much oil and cause slip so i will leave that as a last resort.
When i get more time i will rip it apart and check everything out and find a fix.
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ilmothefinn
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby ilmothefinn » Thu May 26, 2016 12:59 pm

Yes, the shallower the ramp of the pasc clutch is, the more force to the plates. It is somehow like a screw, the finer thread the more strength delivered - by so means you need less torque to reach the same binding force. Either make those ramps shallower (that would not hurt the slipper operation as stronger springs would) or stronger springs... Inadequate lubrication of the ramps may cause binding and prevent ramps moving so clutchplates would slip...

I use Castrol 10w-50 (Power 1 Racing) and did actually two some-kind-of full throttle accelerations a few days ago but didn't notice anything else losing grip but the front wheel slightly from the blacktop somewhere going through 4th and 5th gear... Funny feeling.

Anyhow, will try to make some inquiries about clutch springs...
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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby Oboro » Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:35 pm

I'm also getting clutch slip in 4th and 5th under heavy throttle. RPMs rise faster than normal then drop back a couple hundred rpm until they settle and climb as usual. Went from being robbed of power from another clogged filter to robbed of power by slight clutch slip. Looking for a good aftermarket solution at this point.

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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby wsmc99 » Thu Jun 02, 2016 5:13 pm

SDR Springs are GREEN, just added an additional set of stock shims to mine and went to Mobil 15-50w Synthetic from Shell Rotella 5-40w T6.
Going out today to test.
All preventative for me as I have not really experienced any slippage.

Mid ride and all is lovely other than tyre wear! 8)
Oh, it's 101 F out so it's plenty hot for testing.

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Re: Clutch Slipping

Postby Roja » Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:32 pm

I've changed plate springs on both of my SDR 1290s. It solved the slipping.

I used yellow Harley springs, with a washer to LESSEN the pressure (a full on Harley spring is too stiff for our bike).

I worked with the help of Rekluse on this. Problem solved. Never had them slip again.

It's a little harder to pull in the lever, but got used to it very quickly.

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