RPM'S Hangs around 2-3k why ?

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Re: RPM'S Hangs around 2-3k why ?

Postby Silverbear » Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:33 pm

Not quite sure if I understand your problem but the screw on the back TB with the yellow paint is to balance the TB's,not to adjust idle.Cheers

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Re: RPM'S Hangs around 2-3k why ?

Postby bmxbash » Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:43 am

Yesterday I call to other dealer that know how to solve this problem, and this guy tell me that the correct way to solve is balance throttle bodies with the yellow bolt but with the bike conected in diagnostic tool to put the same vacuum in both cylinder.

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Re: RPM'S Hangs around 2-3k why ?

Postby Rozz » Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:57 pm

Hi all,
Something has been bugging me for ages, hope someone here can help me out.
I have been doing 4cyl carb merc syncing for ages, so when i got my SD1290 with the hanging rpm`s i of course used the mercury syncing tool, vacuum was out quite a bit, dialed in as close as possible but things only got worse! So i then read this thread and adjusted the flies with drill bits, bike purrs as a kitten, ehh i mean runs like hell :twisted: but the vacuum story does "not-compute"

Why is the vacuum adjustment making this worse? Every fiber in my body screams that vacuum syncing should be better than mech syncing? What am i missing here?

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Re: RPM'S Hangs around 2-3k why ?

Postby mrossk » Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:08 pm

What lines did you hook up your gauges to? There's a bunch of plumbing in there, perhaps you used the wrong lines? And out of curiosity, how do you fuel the bike while you're doing this? You have to remove the tank and airbox to access the adjusting screw- do you have an auxiliary tank, or extension fuel lines? I'm curious because I was considering doing this as well, to double check after the "drill bit" method.

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Re: RPM'S Hangs around 2-3k why ?

Postby Rozz » Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:12 am

There is a small nipple/bolt that need to be removed below each of the TB`s, same bolt needs to be removed if you use a scottoiler (this was the dubblecheck)
I reconnected the fuel tank but raised the front end up, same as i do on all the syns i have done.

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Re: RPM'S Hangs around 2-3k why ?

Postby mrossk » Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:56 pm

well ok, thanks for that- I'm curious about the discrepancy between the sync-ing methods too.

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Re: RPM'S Hangs around 2-3k why ?

Postby Hui » Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:24 am

Hello,

Just my tuppence worth from what I found on my bike.

While the mechanical syncing of the butterflies does work and this would be a normal step when setting up multi carbs/thottle bodies of any kind before fitting.
On my 1290 I found that the reason the revs were hanging was the fact that the throttle stop was not getting used but rather the front butterfly was hitting the venturi and the rear was not, the stop had around 40-50 thou air gap.
After doing the mechanical setting using drills as mentioned before the tick-over stop is now getting used. this will allow the tick-over to return properly, and not the fact they're balanced.
Our ears are a great tool to use, back in the day I used to use a tube held to my ear and listen to the whistle inside the venturi and get a very accurate balance, now were into computers and fancy guages and all the shyte that goes with them.
An example of this will be when setting off to do Guys method, place your head across the frame (chin on one side and forehead on the other side of the frame above the t/bodies. Open and let ping closed the butterflies, you'll know doubt hear the front flap closing against the body. After adjusting as per Guys instruction you will then imagine the closing noise is coming from directly in the centre (stereo).

One thing to point out is when the ignition is off the linkage stop will be where you expect it to be ie; no air gap. Ignition on the linkage cycles and rests with 19-20 thou air gap, tick-over uses partially open throttle. there should be no air gap with ignition off.

When mine was running the air-gap was huge but I made the mistake of correcting it and forgot to measure it but by eye it was noticeably way out.

One more thing, a butterfly valve opposed to ball or gate etc. is considered fully open at around 25% as product/air flows around both side of the flap, so a non vertical flap at wide open is not too big an issue but more of a nice to have for smooth flow pattern, we're more concerned with the 1st stages of opening.

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Re: RPM'S Hangs around 2-3k why ?

Postby murphc13 » Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:55 pm

So what's your bottom line?"Sync" or not?

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Re: RPM'S Hangs around 2-3k why ?

Postby DukeNukem999 » Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:56 pm

Geez, good work to find that.. must be frustrating....
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Re: RPM'S Hangs around 2-3k why ?

Postby abc » Fri Aug 12, 2016 2:41 am

Hui wrote:Hello,

On my 1290 I found that the reason the revs were hanging was the fact that the throttle stop was not getting used but rather the front butterfly was hitting the venturi and the rear was not, the stop had around 40-50 thou air gap.
After doing the mechanical setting using drills as mentioned before the tick-over stop is now getting used. this will allow the tick-over to return properly, and not the fact they're balanced.

One thing to point out is when the ignition is off the linkage stop will be where you expect it to be ie; no air gap. Ignition on the linkage cycles and rests with 19-20 thou air gap, tick-over uses partially open throttle. there should be no air gap with ignition off.

When mine was running the air-gap was huge but I made the mistake of correcting it and forgot to measure it but by eye it was noticeably way out.


This was my exact experience when setting the butterflies, it was by chance that i noticed the change in position when the ignition was cycled. I measured the gap on mine to be 0.012inch (0.3mm) It was pretty obvious at the time that the butterfly was being held off the wall of the ventury. So not as bad as yours but enough to make the revs hang a little.
Last edited by abc on Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RPM'S Hangs around 2-3k why ?

Postby Hui » Fri Aug 12, 2016 1:57 pm

murphc13 wrote:So what's your bottom line?"Sync" or not?

To sync or not.
My description was more to do with initial setting of the butterflies before engine start. Syncing is a totally different game. Mechanical syncing is a starting point and ensures things like stop control and full throttle stops are in play rather than using the venturi walls.
To sync properly engine speed needs to be set slightly above tick-over using the tick-over adjusting screw, this allows the adjustment of the flaps to go both ways without fouling. Usually syncing involves going back and forth between balance screw and tick-over.
Anybody who has used the two drill method only, has probably knocked the balance out of sync, but, who cares if the bike runs smoother, which I'm not sure about but hey-ho.
I was away on tour this summer in Spain/Portugal and was lucky enough to have temps in the high 30s @ 43C at one point (rarely in Scotland) and my revs were hanging even worse. I can only put this down to the butterflies expanding more than normal and hitting the venturi wall sooner and not closing.
Last edited by Hui on Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: RPM'S Hangs around 2-3k why ?

Postby SpeedyR » Fri Aug 12, 2016 6:05 pm

so is the consensus to do a full sync with something like Motion Pro sync setup if you want quality results?

I'm about to order the Rottweiler intake and will probably get the Motion Pro sync setup (tubing that connects to the Motion Pro carb/FI sync tool, so you can connect to the FI remotely). I assume you can access the sync adjustment with the tank and everything on the bike (and rottweiler intake installed)?
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Re: RPM'S Hangs around 2-3k why ?

Postby Sarasota_Steve » Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:33 pm

SpeedyR wrote:so is the consensus to do a full sync with something like Motion Pro sync setup if you want quality results?

I'm about to order the Rottweiler intake and will probably get the Motion Pro sync setup (tubing that connects to the Motion Pro carb/FI sync tool, so you can connect to the FI remotely). I assume you can access the sync adjustment with the tank and everything on the bike (and rottweiler intake installed)?



See http://www.superduke.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=25461&hilit=rpm+hanging#p316030 on page 3 of this thread to read how KTMGuy fixed his without the need of tubing and FI synch tool.
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Re: RPM'S Hangs around 2-3k why ?

Postby Hui » Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:49 am

See http://www.superduke.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=25461&hilit=rpm+hanging#p316030 on page 3 of this thread to read how KTMGuy fixed his without the need of tubing and FI synch tool.[/quote]

Yes and no.
We can fix the revs hanging using this method. Which was the original post question.
The problem is, by making the butterflies equal, or as equal as using two drills can get, we have only fixed the high tick-over problem and not the syncing of the throttle bodies. In fact we've messed the syncing up but are happier with that than revs hanging.

Syncing the throttle bodies primary function is to equalise the draw through the combustion cycle on individual cylinders which by definition will mean the butterflies are set to suit the cylinder also meaning the butterflies could be totally different to each other but flow the same.

A couple of thou filed off the leading edge of the front butterfly would allow it to settle onto the tick-over stop and be synced, ie; back to where it was before we had to adjust it away from the venturi wall.
It will only get worse as the miles build and linkage and pivots wear.

Filing butterflies may sound a bit wild to some but this is what tuners have been doing to expensive mass produced factory components for many years. It could maybe be done using computers etc. and reset parameters, I prefer analogue methods.

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Re: RPM'S Hangs around 2-3k why ?

Postby Sarasota_Steve » Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:57 pm

Hui wrote:
Sarasota_Steve wrote:See http://www.superduke.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=25461&hilit=rpm+hanging#p316030 on page 3 of this thread to read how KTMGuy fixed his without the need of tubing and FI synch tool.


Yes and no.
We can fix the revs hanging using this method. Which was the original post question.
The problem is, by making the butterflies equal, or as equal as using two drills can get, we have only fixed the high tick-over problem and not the syncing of the throttle bodies. In fact we've messed the syncing up but are happier with that than revs hanging.

Syncing the throttle bodies primary function is to equalise the draw through the combustion cycle on individual cylinders which by definition will mean the butterflies are set to suit the cylinder also meaning the butterflies could be totally different to each other but flow the same.

A couple of thou filed off the leading edge of the front butterfly would allow it to settle onto the tick-over stop and be synced, ie; back to where it was before we had to adjust it away from the venturi wall.
It will only get worse as the miles build and linkage and pivots wear.

Filing butterflies may sound a bit wild to some but this is what tuners have been doing to expensive mass produced factory components for many years. It could maybe be done using computers etc. and reset parameters, I prefer analogue methods.


I stand corrected. :oops: Thank you for the thorough explanation.
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Re: RPM'S Hangs around 2-3k why ?

Postby Rozz » Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:30 pm

Hui wrote:See http://www.superduke.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=25461&hilit=rpm+hanging#p316030 on page 3 of this thread to read how KTMGuy fixed his without the need of tubing and FI synch tool.

Yes and no.
We can fix the revs hanging using this method. Which was the original post question.
The problem is, by making the butterflies equal, or as equal as using two drills can get, we have only fixed the high tick-over problem and not the syncing of the throttle bodies. In fact we've messed the syncing up but are happier with that than revs hanging.

Syncing the throttle bodies primary function is to equalise the draw through the combustion cycle on individual cylinders which by definition will mean the butterflies are set to suit the cylinder also meaning the butterflies could be totally different to each other but flow the same.

A couple of thou filed off the leading edge of the front butterfly would allow it to settle onto the tick-over stop and be synced, ie; back to where it was before we had to adjust it away from the venturi wall.
It will only get worse as the miles build and linkage and pivots wear.

Filing butterflies may sound a bit wild to some but this is what tuners have been doing to expensive mass produced factory components for many years. It could maybe be done using computers etc. and reset parameters, I prefer analogue methods.


This is indeed what i found out the hard way....drill bit syncing messes up the TB syncing but solves the hanging.

SO

How to remedy this? i have a feeling one cilinder is working harder now (in small/partial throttle ofcourse)
Vacuum TB syncing and than filing one butterflie? if so, then i have another question for you...are the rpms not going to hang again because the air sucked in is now more due to the filing?

I have done quite a bit of TB syncing but never came across the hanging after sync.
PS, i did not notice that the stop was not hit during my syncing, than again, did not really look at it in detail.

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Re: RPM'S Hangs around 2-3k why ?

Postby murphc13 » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:02 pm

I've stated on this and on the SMT forum that my bike didn't run as well with a decat,rotty box,PCV,stacks and pipe+adjusting TB screw(as per Ktm guys explanation) as it did stock(with TB screw unadjusted)

Now after the full Akra install,after leaving the dealers and on the drive home I noticed the idle to hang worse than ever(TB screw in stock position) but the bikes throttle was a beast

Now,after adjusting the TB screw I git rid of the hanging idle but I feel the throttle isn't as aggressive,snappy,pull like a train as much as it did leaving the dealers with the worse hanging idle ever(stock TB screw position)


I don't get how someone out there hasn't got this sorted by KTM yet and can relay the info on this forum!!
If it sounds like I'm a little annoyed it's cause I am!!
I've never had this with a bike and I've never put so much into a bike as I have this bike!!

Surely with all you Aussies and Brits with your multitude of dealers and what not someone has gotten a concrete solution on this!!
FOR fook SAKE;)

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Re: RPM'S Hangs around 2-3k why ?

Postby Hui » Tue Aug 30, 2016 7:24 am

Rozz wrote:
Hui wrote:See http://www.superduke.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=25461&hilit=rpm+hanging#p316030 on page 3 of this thread to read how KTMGuy fixed his without the need of tubing and FI synch tool.

Yes and no.
We can fix the revs hanging using this method. Which was the original post question.
The problem is, by making the butterflies equal, or as equal as using two drills can get, we have only fixed the high tick-over problem and not the syncing of the throttle bodies. In fact we've messed the syncing up but are happier with that than revs hanging.

Syncing the throttle bodies primary function is to equalise the draw through the combustion cycle on individual cylinders which by definition will mean the butterflies are set to suit the cylinder also meaning the butterflies could be totally different to each other but flow the same.

A couple of thou filed off the leading edge of the front butterfly would allow it to settle onto the tick-over stop and be synced, ie; back to where it was before we had to adjust it away from the venturi wall.
It will only get worse as the miles build and linkage and pivots wear. Syncing can then be carried out as per normal and both butterflies can adjust both directions if required, at the moment the front butterfly cannot, well, not without increasing tick-over that is.

Filing butterflies may sound a bit wild to some but this is what tuners have been doing to expensive mass produced factory components for many years. It could maybe be done using computers etc. and reset parameters, I prefer analogue methods.


This is indeed what i found out the hard way....drill bit syncing messes up the TB syncing but solves the hanging.

SO

How to remedy this? i have a feeling one cilinder is working harder now (in small/partial throttle ofcourse)
Vacuum TB syncing and than filing one butterflie? if so, then i have another question for you...are the rpms not going to hang again because the air sucked in is now more due to the filing?

I have done quite a bit of TB syncing but never came across the hanging after sync.
PS, i did not notice that the stop was not hit during my syncing, than again, did not really look at it in detail.


When I say file a bit off the butterfly, I mean don't go at it with a 9" grinder but more of a light rub until the butterfly no longer hits the Venturi but instead it allows the linkage to settle onto the stop.
Another reason for doing this apart from the obvious is to prevent the butterfly forming a groove on the wall of the TB.
The question of more air passing and so lifting the tick-over should not be an issue if done correctly.

Remember, hanging throttle may only appear after temps. soar and the butterfly is a thou or two too big by expansion. Syncing can now be done as per normal knowing the butterflies can be adjusted in both directions if needed which at the moment it seems the front one cannot.
Last edited by Hui on Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: RPM'S Hangs around 2-3k why ?

Postby Rozz » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:40 am

Hui wrote:
When I say file a bit off the butterfly, I mean don't go at it with a 9" grinder but more of a light rub until the butterfly no longer hits the Venturi but instead it allows the linkage to settle onto the stop.
Another reason for doing this apart from the obvious is to prevent the butterfly forming a groove on the wall of the TB.
The question of more air passing and so lifting the tick-over should not be an issue if done correctly.

Remember, hanging throttle may only appear after temps. sore and the butterfly is a thou or two too big by expansion. Syncing can now be done as per normal knowing the butterflies can be adjusted in both directions if needed which at the moment it seems the front one cannot.


OK i get the filing down with a grinder is a big NONO :mrgreen:,
So the rpm`s hang due to the front flie is closed (hitting the tb venturi) and the linkage is not at its stop? this hanging is caused by electric compensation (more fuel injection) due to less vacuum on the front??
So when filing down the front flie, it causes the linkage to hit and as the front flie has a clearance i can sync the tb`s the normal way again?

As stated by murphc13, i also miss the snappines of the throttle and would like to get the bike 100%

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Re: RPM'S Hangs around 2-3k why ?

Postby ktmguy » Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:15 pm

Rozz wrote:
As stated by murphc13, i also miss the snappines of the throttle and would like to get the bike 100%


I think you confuse smoothness with loss of HP!
A snap in the throttle doesn't mean you loose power, it's fly by wire, the flies open progressively controlled by a computer.
If the bike is running properly there is no snap in the throttle just smooth power all the way up.
The snap you feel when it's not right is because one butterfly is dragging behind and then when it's open enough that cyl comes to life.
If you want snap look for an old 500 2 stroke or something. :lol:
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Re: RPM'S Hangs around 2-3k why ?

Postby murphc13 » Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:37 am

ktmguy wrote:
Rozz wrote:
As stated by murphc13, i also miss the snappines of the throttle and would like to get the bike 100%


I think you confuse smoothness with loss of HP!
A snap in the throttle doesn't mean you loose power, it's fly by wire, the flies open progressively controlled by a computer.
If the bike is running properly there is no snap in the throttle just smooth power all the way up.
The snap you feel when it's not right is because one butterfly is dragging behind and then when it's open enough that cyl comes to life.
If you want snap look for an old 500 2 stroke or something. :lol:


We're all happy to have sorted the hanging revs guy....id assume anyway!!
But whether it's loss of power,smoothness or whatever you wanna call it it doesn't matter!!
The adjustment of the tb screw fixes one issue and causes another!!
I can 'feel' it!!
Others on here have a better explanation of what's actually causing the 'issue' but no one seems to have a solution!!
That's the frustrating part!!

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Re: RPM'S Hangs around 2-3k why ?

Postby abc » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:00 pm

I adjusted the butterflies to solve the idle hanging and still have the same snappiness as I always had. I only had to make very small adjustments so maybe that why my bike is still as punchy as before. i am still not convinced by this discussion but time will tell.
I certainly wouldn't be encouraging members to attack their butterflies unless you know exactly what you are doing and are competent when doing precision work with metals.if you do have a go and fook it up it will cause even more problems for you. I agree knife edging of butterflies is not that uncommon a practice and I have done it to a few race engines in the past but i take my skills for granted and can imagine someone really making a mess of it and going backwards in performance if not competent.
Although its not that difficult I advise to proceed with caution if you have never done anything like this before.
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Re: RPM'S Hangs around 2-3k why ?

Postby murphc13 » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:34 pm

murphc13 wrote:
ktmguy wrote:
Rozz wrote:
As stated by murphc13, i also miss the snappines of the throttle and would like to get the bike 100%


I think you confuse smoothness with loss of HP!
A snap in the throttle doesn't mean you loose power, it's fly by wire, the flies open progressively controlled by a computer.
If the bike is running properly there is no snap in the throttle just smooth power all the way up.
The snap you feel when it's not right is because one butterfly is dragging behind and then when it's open enough that cyl comes to life.
If you want snap look for an old 500 2 stroke or something. :lol:


We're all happy to have sorted the hanging revs guy....id assume anyway!!
But whether it's loss of power,smoothness or whatever you wanna call it it doesn't matter!!
The adjustment of the tb screw fixes one issue and causes another!!
I can 'feel' it!!
Others on here have a better explanation of what's actually causing the 'issue' but no one seems to have a solution!!
That's the frustrating part!!

I also had the DB killer in at first when the bike felt great!!
I wonder if that's the problem?

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Re: RPM'S Hangs around 2-3k why ?

Postby Oupy » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:47 pm

Its been about a year since i did a mechanical balance and the bike has been running great with no hanging.
But one thing that has bugged me since making this change, is that the warm idle is a bit inconsistent and hunts up and down a bit.

Currently running a Rottweiler intake, 80mm stacks, Arrow decat and a PCV - over the standard map not the akra map. The bike was tuned on the dyno some time prior to the mechanical butterfly balance.
Before i go through the whole process of rechecking them, I'd like to get an idea of other things that may be possible causing this

My thoughts are:

  • PCV map might be slightly off at idle due to it being tuned in the state before fly balance - Can someone with similar mods on the standard map show me their idle range values for each cylinder in PCV?

  • The adaptive parameters were already bedded in when the bike used to have the uneven flies and hanging issue - Should i take it to the dealer to have them "reset adaptive parameters" and do a 10 min reset? (and should i zero the idle values in PCV prior to doing this?)

  • Mechanical balance was not close enough and needs to be re-done.

Would appreciate some superduke.net wisdom, thanks!

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Re: RPM'S Hangs around 2-3k why ?

Postby ktmguy » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:55 am

Oupy wrote:Its been about a year since i did a mechanical balance and the bike has been running great with no hanging.
But one thing that has bugged me since making this change, is that the warm idle is a bit inconsistent and hunts up and down a bit.

Currently running a Rottweiler intake, 80mm stacks, Arrow decat and a PCV - over the standard map not the akra map. The bike was tuned on the dyno some time prior to the mechanical butterfly balance.
Before i go through the whole process of rechecking them, I'd like to get an idea of other things that may be possible causing this

My thoughts are:

  • PCV map might be slightly off at idle due to it being tuned in the state before fly balance - Can someone with similar mods on the standard map show me their idle range values for each cylinder in PCV?

  • The adaptive parameters were already bedded in when the bike used to have the uneven flies and hanging issue - Should i take it to the dealer to have them "reset adaptive parameters" and do a 10 min reset? (and should i zero the idle values in PCV prior to doing this?)

  • Mechanical balance was not close enough and needs to be re-done.

Would appreciate some superduke.net wisdom, thanks!



Reset adaptive parameters. After I did the fix on mine it kinda did the same thing till the dealer hooked it up to the diagnostic tool and reset them.
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